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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#136683
10/10/11 07:24 PM
10/10/11 07:24 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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Midland
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"definite time" predictions is putting last day events into definite time frames How do we know who is right? Because I don't see it this way. When Mrs. White spoke of "definite time," she was contrasting what happened in 1844 with what would not happen again--an exact date proclaimed for Jesus' Second Coming. I see the "definite time" as a reference to a precise date for this event. I do not see it as precluding all prophetic events, nor even of erasing all precise times. Just a note of caution. Besides being careful that one doesn't swap definitions on you, you must also keep in mind what Ellen White said versus what is claimed she said.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#136700
10/11/11 02:46 AM
10/11/11 02:46 AM
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Then we heard the voice of God which shook the heavens and earth, and gave the 144,000 the day and hour of Jesus' coming. Then the saints were free, united and full of the glory of God, for he had turned their captivity. And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood and he laid off his priestly garment and put on his kingly robe, took his place on the cloud which carried him to the east where it first appeared to the saints on earth, a small black cloud, which was the sign of the Son of Man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days, the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet. Ellen G. Harmon {DS, March 14, 1846 par. 2
When compared with the sequence in Great Controversy we see that this isn't talking about the close of probation, but of Jesus preparing to come to earth. He is mounting the cloud that will bring Him to earth. The voice of God (which Great Controversy places AFTER the plagues have fallen, and after the saints are delivered from the death decree) has announced the time of Christ's coming. Notice the saints are FREE! their captivity has been turned! -- so this happens at the END of the time of trouble when God delivers them! The "number of days" simply point to a few days between the announcement and actual sighting of the cloud. That's why I outlined the events in Great Controversy so you could SEE where that quote actually comes in the stream of time. It appears you are reading the paragraph above as if Ellen was writing chronologically. You seem to be saying Jesus doesn't leave the sanctuary until “after” the plagues are poured out. However, if the following passages describe the same event, namely, Jesus leaving the sanctuary, isn't it clear the plagues fall after Jesus leaves the sanctuary? The plagues fall AFTER Christ's work in the Most Holy Place is completed, I agree with that. But is the heavenly sanctuary closed at that point? Or does it only change in its work? Where do the angels with the plagues come from? Rev. 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues,Where do you think God the Father and Jesus are while the plagues are being poured out? 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. So we need to be careful -- The closing of Christ's work in the Most Holy Place denotes a "coming out" from that phase of the Sanctuary ministry. Jesus steps out from between the "wrath of God" and the guilty sinners. Probation closes at that point and trouble sweeps the earth. Yet, there are still things going on in the Heavenly temple after the plagues are being poured out. Christ must "come forth" as He prepares to come to earth on that glorious cloud. (a different event from closing His ministry) I quoted more of the same paragraph by EGW to show the context. So I don't see this as speaking of Christ ending His intercessory ministry, it is speaking of Him mounting the glorious cloud dressed in royal robes to come to earth AFTER the announcement has been made concerning the day and hour of His coming. I see that it says it takes THE CLOUD a number of days to travel before it is actually here. From the time God delivers His people from the death decree till Jesus' CLOUD is sighted in the east will be a few days. How many days, we don't know. The "number of days' is refering to the CLOUD and that it will take a number of days to make its journey. Some have speculated it takes seven days -- but again that is SPECULATION as well -- we don't know. So yes, I do see it as being in sequence.
Last edited by dedication; 10/11/11 03:28 AM.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: dedication]
#136701
10/11/11 03:10 AM
10/11/11 03:10 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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I'm sorry, but it is impossible for me to see EGW's use of the phrase "Definite Prophetic Time" to mean ONLY setting a date for Christ's second coming. You guys (Kland and Green C) seem to be talking in circles. It just doesn't make SENSE. To me it simply sounds like a lot of double talk (making words mean different things from what they normally mean) to get around the admonishions not to set last day events into specific (definite) time settings. Let all our brethren and sisters beware of anyone who would set a time for the Lord to fulfill His word in regard to His coming, or in regard to any other promise He has made of special significance. "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power." False teachers may appear to be very zealous for the work of God, and may expend means to bring their theories before the world and the church; but as they mingle error with truth, their message is one of deception, and will lead souls into false paths. They are to be met and opposed, not because they are bad men, but because they are teachers of falsehood and are endeavoring to put upon falsehood the stamp of truth. {TM 55.1}
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: dedication]
#136711
10/11/11 09:25 AM
10/11/11 09:25 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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The Orient
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Dedication, Perhaps a few quotes would be in order. Just as we must use scripture to define scripture, Ellen White needs to be used to define her own terminology insofar as possible. Her terminology for "definite time" is clear. The preaching of definite time called forth great opposition from all classes, from the minister in the pulpit down to the most reckless, heaven-daring sinner. "No man knoweth the day nor the hour," was heard from the hypocritical minister and the bold scoffer. Neither would be instructed and corrected by those who were pointing to the year when they believed the prophetic periods would run out, and to the signs which showed Christ near, even at the doors. Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said that they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming, but they objected to the definite time. God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near. They knew that their unchristian lives would not stand the test, for they were not walking in the humble path marked out by Him. These false shepherds stood in the way of the work of God. The truth spoken in its convincing power aroused the people, and like the jailer, they began to inquire, "What must I do to be saved?" But these shepherds stepped in between the truth and the people, and preached smooth things to lead them from the truth. They united with Satan and his angels, crying, "Peace, peace," when there was no peace. Those who loved their ease and were content with their distance from God would not be aroused from their carnal security. I saw that angels of God marked it all; the garments of those unconsecrated shepherds were covered with the blood of souls. {EW 233.2} This statement from "Early Writings" regards the pre-disappointment teaching of the day of Christ's Advent. Notice how Mrs. White uses the terms "definite time" and "prophetic periods" here? It is clear what she means. In fact, in this instance, she calls those who were pointing out texts such as Matthew 24:36 regarding NOT knowing the day and hour hypocrites, "unconsecrated shepherds," who are "covered with the blood of souls!" What "day and hour" was being preached at that time? Was it a "day" for the plagues? No. Was it a "day" for probation's close? Sort of...if we count that the day of Jesus' coming would certainly close the probation for all. But most specifically, the "definite time" had but one object in mind--the Advent. Let's look at a few more statements. We are not to be engrossed with speculations in regard to the times and the seasons which God has not revealed. Jesus has told His disciples to "watch," but not for definite time. His followers are to be in the position of those who are listening for the orders of their Captain; they are to watch, wait, pray, and work, as they approach the time for the coming of the Lord; but no one will be able to predict just when that time will come; for "of that day and hour knoweth no man." You will not be able to say that He will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off His coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years. . . . We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ.--Review and Herald, March 22, 1892. {Ev 221.1} In the above passage, Ellen White has done a complete about-face from the former position. Whereas before, teaching the "definite time" meant to be teaching a Heaven-sent message, and to oppose it meant grave error, she now says God has not given any such message to His disciples. She takes the time in this second passage to identify two things for which we cannot know the "definite time": 1) the Second Coming; and 2) the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Let's look at some more quotes and see if she clarifies this further. Many who have called themselves Adventists have been time-setters. Time after time has been set for Christ to come, but repeated failures have been the result. The definite time of our Lord's coming is declared to be beyond the ken of mortals. Even the angels, who minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation, know not the day nor the hour. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only."--4T 307 (1879). {LDE 32.3} We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ. . . . Why has not God given us this knowledge?--Because we would not make a right use of it if He did. A condition of things would result from this knowledge among our people that would greatly retard the work of God in preparing a people to stand in the great day that is to come. We are not to live upon time excitement. . . . {LDE 33.1} You will not be able to say that He will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off His coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years.--RH March 22, 1892. {LDE 33.2} We are nearing the great day of God. The signs are fulfilling. And yet we have no message to tell us of the day and hour of Christ's appearing. The Lord has wisely concealed this from us that we may always be in a state of expectancy and preparation for the second appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven.--Letter 28, 1897. {LDE 33.3} The exact time of the second coming of the Son of man is God's mystery.--DA 633 (1898). {LDE 33.4}
Ours Is Not a Time-setting Message
We are not of that class who define the exact period of time that shall elapse before the coming of Jesus the second time with power and great glory. Some have set a time, and when that has passed, their presumptuous spirits have not accepted rebuke, but they have set another and another time. But many successive failures have stamped them as false prophets.--FE 335 (1895). {LDE 34.1} God gives no man a message that it will be five years or ten years or twenty years before this earth's history shall close. He would not give any living being an excuse for delaying the preparation for His appearing. He would have no one say, as did the unfaithful servant, "My lord delayeth his coming," for this leads to reckless neglect of the opportunities and privileges given to prepare us for that great day.--RH Nov. 27, 1900. {LDE 34.2} Time after time, she refers to the "definite time," to "time setting," etc. with but a singular object in mind--Christ's Second Coming. She repeatedly says we are not to set dates for this. Many who have called themselves Adventists have been time setters. Time after time has been set for Christ to come, but repeated failures have been the result. The definite time of our Lord's coming is declared to be beyond the ken of mortals. Even the angels who minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation know not the day nor the hour. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Because the times repeatedly set have passed, the world is in a more decided state of unbelief than before in regard to the near advent of Christ. They look upon the failures of the time setters with disgust; and because men have been so deceived, they turn from the truth substantiated by the word of God that the end of all things is at hand. {4T 307.1} Those who so presumptuously preach definite time, in so doing gratify the adversary of souls; for they are advancing infidelity rather than Christianity. They produce Scripture and by false interpretation show a chain of argument which apparently proves their position. But their failures show that they are false prophets, that they do not rightly interpret the language of inspiration. The word of God is truth and verity, but men have perverted its meaning. These errors have brought the truth of God for these last days into disrepute. Adventists are derided by ministers of all denominations, yet God's servants must not hold their peace. The signs foretold in prophecy are fast fulfilling around us. This should arouse every true follower of Christ to zealous action. {4T 307.2} Those who think they must preach definite time in order to make an impression upon the people do not work from the right standpoint. The feelings of the people may be stirred and their fears aroused, but they do not move from principle. An excitement is created; but when the time passes, as it has done repeatedly, those who moved out upon time fall back into coldness, darkness, and sin, and it is almost impossible to arouse their consciences without some great excitement. {4T 308.1} In Noah's day the inhabitants of the old world laughed to scorn what they termed the superstitious fears and forebodings of the preacher of righteousness. He was denounced as a visionary character, a fanatic, an alarmist. "As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man." Men will reject the solemn message of warning in our day, as they did in Noah's time. They will refer to those false teachers who have predicted the event and set the definite time, and will say that they have no more faith in our warning than in theirs. This is the attitude of the world today. Unbelief is widespread, and the preaching of Christ's coming is mocked at and derided. This makes it all the more essential that those who believe present truth should show their faith by their works. They should be sanctified through the truth which they profess to believe; for they are a savor of life unto life or of death unto death. {4T 308.2} Noah preached to the people of his time that God would give them one hundred and twenty years in which to repent of their sins and find refuge in the ark, but they refused the gracious invitation. Abundant time was given them to turn from their sins, overcome their bad habits, and develop righteous characters. But inclination to sin, though weak at first with many, strengthened through repeated indulgence and hurried them on to irretrievable ruin. The merciful warning of God was rejected with sneers, with mockery and derision; and they were left in darkness to follow the course that their sinful hearts had chosen. But their unbelief did not hinder the predicted event. It came, and great was the wrath of God which was seen in the general ruin. {4T 308.3} The entire passage above shows that the term "definite time" refers specifically to the Advent. That is the context of her message with regard to this term. The world placed all time-proclamation on the same level and called it a delusion, fanaticism and heresy. Ever since 1844 I have borne my testimony that we were now in a period of time in which we are to take heed to ourselves lest our hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon us unawares. Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming. We do not know the day nor the hour, or when the definite time is, and yet the prophetic reckoning shows us that Christ is at the door. {10MR 270.1} Anyone looking carefully at the above statement would agree that the "prophetic periods" which closed in 1844 are those which were used by the Millerites to determine the precise day of the Lord's return. Did those periods have a fulfillment at that time? Certainly. But not the expected one. And from that point onward, no "definite time" was to be in our message to the world regarding Christ's coming. One more quote... This was the document I came upon last Monday in searching over my writings, and here is another which was written in regard to a man who was setting time in 1884, and sending broadcast his arguments to prove his theories. The report of what he was doing was brought to me at the Jackson, Mich., camp-meeting, and I told the people they need not take heed to this man's theory; for the event he predicted would not take place. The times and the seasons God has put in his own power, and why has not God given us this knowledge?--Because we would not make a right use of it if he did. A condition of things would result from this knowledge among our people that would greatly retard the work of God in preparing a people to stand in the great day that is to come. We are not to live upon time excitement. We are not to be engrossed with speculations in regard to the times and the seasons which God has not revealed. Jesus has told his disciples to "watch," but not for definite time. His followers are to be in the position of those who are listening for the orders of their Captain: they are to watch, wait, pray, and work, as they approach the time for the coming of the Lord: but no one will be able to predict just when that time will come: for "of that day and hour knoweth no man." You will not be able to say that he will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off his coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years. {1888 959.3} Just as Harold Camping's time of Christ's return failed, so will all such predictions of "definite time." Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: kland]
#136722
10/11/11 02:55 PM
10/11/11 02:55 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Kland, yes, I think all the details described in GC 613-641 can happen within the "number of days" Ellen specified.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: kland]
#136723
10/11/11 03:00 PM
10/11/11 03:00 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Dedication, I believe the following passages make it clear Jesus will leave the sanctuary when probation closes. While en route to the east, which will take "a number days", the details described in GC 613-641 will unfold. And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood and he laid off his priestly garment and put on his kingly robe, took his place on the cloud which carried him to the east where it first appeared to the saints on earth, a small black cloud, which was the sign of the Son of Man. {DS, March 14, 1846 par. 2}
Then I saw that after Jesus leaves the sanctuary the plagues will be poured out. Said the angel, It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. I saw that at the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. {12MR 248.2}
When Christ shall cease His work as mediator in man's behalf, then this time of trouble will begin. --PP 201 (1890). {LDE 253.1}
When Jesus leaves the most holy His restraining Spirit is withdrawn from rulers and people. --1T 204 (1859). {LDE 255.1}
I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. --EW 36 (1851). {LDE 256.2}
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. --GC 613, 614 (1911). {LDE 265.6}
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#136724
10/11/11 03:02 PM
10/11/11 03:02 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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That's an interesting case, Mike, and one which I do have questions about. I had always believed it until I looked further into it once several years ago, at which point I came across a few uncertainties. Mrs. White herself makes little mention of this (the quote you found is the only one), and it appears that little was said about this after its date had passed. I am not saying here that I do not believe it, only that I do not find a strong case for it, and I'm open to reinterpreting it.
As for the trumpets themselves, I think events like 9/11 might have something to do with them. Again, I'm still trying to understand these things. I find it hard to believe Jesus allowed Ellen to endorse both Litch and Smith if they were wrong. He runs the risk of Ellen being branded a false prophet.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#136727
10/11/11 03:22 PM
10/11/11 03:22 PM
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Green Cochoa, The 2300 days, 1335 days, 1290 days, 1260 days all are definite time periods, with a starting date and closing date, none reach beyond 1844. The Millerites were teaching definite time on all those prophetic timelines and had come to the conclusion that Christ would come at the end of these definite time periods. Both the 2300 days and 1335 days reached the 1843-1844 date, as well as the less mentioned 2520 timeline. The Millerites had all these dates on a chart showing that they had all run their course on definite time prior, and leading up to the second advent, which they ASSUMED would take place at the end point of those definite time prophecies. The early 7th day Adventists continued to use those charts of definite time, but NOW it was to show the beginning of Christ's work in the Most Holy Place as beginning in 1844. EGW says the teaching of the Millerites on definite time was CORRECT -- the charts were what God wanted, the mapping out of the timelines was correct. So what was wrong. It was assuming Christ would appear in the clouds of glory at the end of those definite prophetic timelines. Ever since 1844 people were re-interpreting those timelines to try and figure out how to make them reach Christ's actual second coming -- they were resetting the application of time and events leading up to Christ's second coming. Those quotes by EGW are very plain -- she warns again and again and again against trying to set definite time for ANY of the events leading up to the second coming. Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844. The prophetic periods have CLOSED in 1844! You will not be able to say that He will come in one, two, or five years, Thus no one will be able to say, the Sunday law has passed, Christ will come within the next "x" number of years, or the Sunday law is agitated, it will pass in "x" number of years, thus Christ will come in the next "x" number years, etc, either. All we know for sure is that the final events will be rapid ones. This trying to space them out according to the already fulfilled timelines can have even greater devasting effects on those who accept them as any of Campings predictions. Great changes are soon to take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones.--9T 11
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#136728
10/11/11 03:48 PM
10/11/11 03:48 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Dedication, I believe the following passages make it clear Jesus will leave the sanctuary when probation closes. While en route to the east, which will take "a number days", the details described in GC 613-641 will unfold. And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood and he laid off his priestly garment and put on his kingly robe, took his place on the cloud which carried him to the east where it first appeared to the saints on earth, a small black cloud, which was the sign of the Son of Man. {DS, March 14, 1846 par. 2}
Then I saw that after Jesus leaves the sanctuary the plagues will be poured out. Said the angel, It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. I saw that at the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. {12MR 248.2}
When Christ shall cease His work as mediator in man's behalf, then this time of trouble will begin. --PP 201 (1890). {LDE 253.1}
When Jesus leaves the most holy His restraining Spirit is withdrawn from rulers and people. --1T 204 (1859). {LDE 255.1}
I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. --EW 36 (1851). {LDE 256.2}
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. --GC 613, 614 (1911). {LDE 265.6} Do you really think Christ will already be on the cloud coming to earth throughout the whole of the endtime events? Well it does fit some more radical explanations I've heard -- basically that Christ's coming will seem like a great astroid slowly approaching earth, it's approach terrifies the people of earth and prompts the radical decision to eliminate all opposition to the "world religion" in hopes that disaster will be stayed and God will be appeased. As it comes nearer it turns all nature out of its course by its sheer magnetic and powerful force -- thus the events of the seventh plague. Then God announces the time when it will reach earth. God's people watch expectantly as it comes closer, now knowing it is the sign of Christ coming. But as I mentioned -- that's a more radical interpretation? To say Christ mounts the flaming cloud that carries Him to earth, at the beginning of the events in chapters 39-40 while she mentions it at the end, kind of throws the whole sequence of what she's saying out, unless it will be a very slowly approaching object.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: dedication]
#136763
10/12/11 03:28 PM
10/12/11 03:28 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
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Do you really think Christ will already be on the cloud coming to earth throughout the whole of the endtime events? . . . To say Christ mounts the flaming cloud that carries Him to earth, at the beginning of the events in chapters 39-40 while she mentions it at the end, kind of throws the whole sequence of what she's saying out, unless it will be a very slowly approaching object. If we take into consideration all the quotes I posted above it seems clear to me Ellen is saying several things will happen nearly simultaneously - 1) Jesus ceases mediating, 2) probation closes, 3) Jesus leaves the sanctuary bound for the east, a journey that will take "a number of days", 4) the angels begin pouring out the seven last plagues.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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