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Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: dedication] #136865
10/15/11 11:58 PM
10/15/11 11:58 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication

Jesus' servants ask -- should we pull out and get rid of the tares?
Translate -- should we stone the evil doers?


Lost in translation?

We don't need to assume such dire measures were intended. What about "disfellowship?" The fact is, "stoning" is not mentioned. Furthermore, this may be a realm of action which does not involve us. After all, we are either the wheat or the tares. We are not God's angels. As a wheat or a tare, it is not in our power to purge the field of all tares, is it?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Green Cochoa] #136866
10/15/11 11:59 PM
10/15/11 11:59 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Dedication,

Why did they ask God in the case of the Sabbath breaker?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Green Cochoa] #136876
10/16/11 03:47 PM
10/16/11 03:47 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Certainly there should be a fair trial before the person accused of breaking the law was executed (Deut. 17:1-7). I believe that if the person showed no evidence of repentance, the case could be easily decided. But if the local judges had any doubt about what to do, then the case should be taken to the priests (Deut. 17:8, 9), who, of course, could inquire the Lord about it. Later in history, the difficult cases could be taken to the king (2 Sam. 14:13; 15:2) or to some person appointed by him (2 Sam. 15:3), but these also could consult the Lord through a priest or prophet (1 Sam. 28:6).

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Rosangela] #136880
10/16/11 06:57 PM
10/16/11 06:57 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Well,

It seems no one is willing to touch the question of "why" the people asked counsel of God in the case of the Sabbath breaker.

Thankfully, Ellen White was not silent on the matter. She tells us plainly the reason.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Soon after the return into the wilderness, an instance of Sabbath violation occurred, under circumstances that rendered it a case of peculiar guilt. The Lord's announcement that He would disinherit Israel had roused a spirit of rebellion. One of the people, angry at being excluded from Canaan, and determined to show his defiance of God's law, ventured upon the open transgression of the fourth commandment by going out to gather sticks upon the Sabbath. During the sojourn in the wilderness the kindling of fires upon the seventh day had been strictly prohibited. The prohibition was not to extend to the land of Canaan, where the severity of the climate would often render fires a necessity; but in the wilderness, fire was not needed for warmth. The act of this man was a willful and deliberate violation of the fourth commandment--a sin, not of thoughtlessness or ignorance, but of presumption. {PP 408.4}

He was taken in the act and brought before Moses. It had already been declared that Sabbathbreaking should be punished with death, but it had not yet been revealed how the penalty was to be inflicted. The case was brought by Moses before the Lord, and the direction was given, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp." Numbers 15:35. The sins of blasphemy and willful Sabbathbreaking received the same punishment, being equally an expression of contempt for the authority of God. {PP 409.1}


It is clear that the people had a reason to ask God about it which had nothing to do with knowing or understanding the man's heart. It is also clear that the man's heart was not right anyway, and he would have been unlikely to exhibit any sort of repentance. But the people did not go to ask God if the man were repentant. They asked to know the manner of his execution. And God told them it should be by stoning.

Had it already been declared that Sabbath breakers should be stoned, they would have had no need to ask God what to do. His will would have been already sufficiently clear on the matter, and the people could have gone ahead and executed judgment accordingly.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Green Cochoa] #136882
10/16/11 07:13 PM
10/16/11 07:13 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
Quote:
It is clear that the people had a reason to ask God about it which had nothing to do with knowing or understanding the man's heart. It is also clear that the man's heart was not right anyway, and he would have been unlikely to exhibit any sort of repentance. But the people did not go to ask God if the man were repentant. They asked to know the manner of his execution. And God told them it should be by stoning.

Had it already been declared that Sabbath breakers should be stoned, they would have had no need to ask God what to do. His will would have been already sufficiently clear on the matter, and the people could have gone ahead and executed judgment accordingly.

I agree with this, since, as you said, the man was unrepentant.

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Rosangela] #136885
10/17/11 02:22 AM
10/17/11 02:22 AM
dedication  Online Content
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GC
Why even belabor this point that you are insisting on following.
You always pull the conversation back to insisting that the Israelites were NOT to ask God before stoning people, but that they were to make up their own minds as to who should be stoned.

That sounds VERY WRONG to my way of thinking.

You find a quote from EGW and build a whole theology on it, that she never ever intended to have built upon it.

We've pointed out that mankind has made some terrible mistakes when they take that attitude that they have the RIGHT to stone whom they deem worthy of stoning.

They would have even stoned Christ on the accusation of breaking the Sabbath if Divine protection hadn't intervened.

They stoned Stephen for blasphemy.


Actually it is off the topic of this thread. And for some reason you seem to refuse to look at the REAL implications of the issue in OUR DAY, which, according to the title of this thread is what it's all about.

Indeed you even get rather upset when it's brought up and call that a STRAWMAN. WHY???

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Green Cochoa] #136886
10/17/11 02:36 AM
10/17/11 02:36 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: dedication

(the parable of Matt. 13) Now let's look at the above closer for Jesus Himself explains it in verses 36 to 42.


He that sows the good seed is the Son of man --Jesus Himself.

What is the field?

The field is the world

What is the good seed?

the good seed are the children of the kingdom

What are the tares?

tares are the children of the wicked one
The enemy that sowed them is the devil;


Jesus' servants ask -- should we pull out and get rid of the tares?
Translate -- should we stone the evil doers?


Jesus says NO, leave them till the harvest when the reapers will do the job.

When is the harvest?

the harvest is the end of the world

Who are the reapers?

the reapers are the angels

What happens to the tares at the end of the world?

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time. The destruction of the lawless ones is not to be carried out now, the angels will take care of that at the end of the world.


Lost in translation?

We don't need to assume such dire measures were intended. What about "disfellowship?" The fact is, "stoning" is not mentioned. Furthermore, this may be a realm of action which does not involve us. After all, we are either the wheat or the tares. We are not God's angels. As a wheat or a tare, it is not in our power to purge the field of all tares, is it?
Green Cochoa.


So how does one disfellowship someone out of this world?

Jesus said the field IS THE WORLD,

and don't go trumping the BIBLE with another quote from EGW, the BIBLE comes FIRST, and EGW second. Her's is a secondary interpretation. The BIBLE gives the primary interpretation.

Jesus said the field IS THE WORLD.

Now how do you uproot people OUT OF THE WORLD?

The Catholic Church and even some of the Protestants thought they needed to KILL, torture and exterminate those who refused to obey their laws on worship.

You are right -- we are NOT the reapers, the angels are the reapers, and it's NOT the job of any professing religionist to kill anyone that doesn't worship according to their idea of right.

And that is in answer to the original question--
Why don't Sabbath keepers stone Sabbath Breakers,
we don't BECAUSE WE ARE NOT THE REAPERS.

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: dedication] #136891
10/17/11 06:37 AM
10/17/11 06:37 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Dedication,

You are obviously rather exercised about this issue, yet you are so strongly opposed to what you perceive my position to be that you are not understanding what I'm trying to say (i.e. my actual position).

I'm not sure if I should attempt to explain further or not.

But I will bring up one case, which exemplifies my point. First, the Biblical principal: crime and punishment.

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible
Thou shalt not commit adultery. (Exodus 20:14)

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)


Now the story.

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible
25:6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who [were] weeping [before] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
25:7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw [it], he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
25:8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
25:9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
25:10 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
25:11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
25:12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
25:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, [even] the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.
25:14 Now the name of the Israelite that was slain, [even] that was slain with the Midianitish woman, [was] Zimri, the son of Salu, a prince of a chief house among the Simeonites.
25:15 And the name of the Midianitish woman that was slain [was] Cozbi, the daughter of Zur; he [was] head over a people, [and] of a chief house in Midian.
(Numbers)


God honored Phinehas, and he certainly did not seek God's will via Urim and Thummim. God had already made known His will through the laws He had given Israel. To question at that point would be to doubt God's sincerity.

IFF (if and only if) God had not already given a command regarding a particular situation, then it would be appropriate to seek His will via Urim and Thummim. That was the case with the Sabbath breaker. The form of punishment had not been made known. That is why they asked God what to do. smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Green Cochoa] #136893
10/17/11 03:16 PM
10/17/11 03:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
M: GC, I believe mercy is an inherent part of God's character and law. To exercise mercy rather than justice, however, requires knowing motive. Since only Jesus knows motives, only Jesus can determine whether mercy or justice is appropriate. Were it not the law, it would not occur to us to inquire of Jesus the best course of action to pursue.

G: So Saul was supposed to have asked God if it were His will to execute the witch of Endor? I do not believe so. If this were the case, why would God give the law to stone such people? Does God give us a law without giving us the wisdom to follow it? Let us not forget that God did give some specifics in how to follow the law--such as having at least two or three witnesses before executing capital punishments. But, provided the witnesses, in light of the law, God's will was known on certain cases and the people were obligated to follow it.

I see what you mean, however, I cannot help thinking it makes perfect sense to include Jesus in the decision making process. I absolutely cannot imagine executing someone without consulting Jesus.

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Mountain Man] #136911
10/18/11 12:55 AM
10/18/11 12:55 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Your case was an extreme case --
All Israel was keenly aware of their great sin and had gathered in mourning appealing to God for forgiveness, when this guy deliberately and in full view of everyone flaunts his determination to continue with the immoral worship practices of the Baal cult.

All the examples of stoning that were "of God" were against people who acted in open defiance in situations where God had just made His position clear. God was very much involved.

As to the command itself --
On this I fully agree with Mountain Man

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I cannot help thinking it makes perfect sense to include Jesus in the decision making process. I absolutely cannot imagine executing someone without consulting Jesus
.


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