The way you put things is odd, IMO, but I agree with much of what you say. The way I would put it is that we have unconscious sin, which does not cause us to be lost, but nevertheless dishonors God. If all we are concerned about is getting to heaven, then we don't need to worry about them. OTOH if we are concerned about His honor and glory, we will pray that God will reveal these unconsious sins to us.

Also I believe that we do grow in Christ, in ways which involve repentance.

Sister White says the books of heaven record the sins we would have committed had we had the opportunity. This would be unconscious sin. If you would refer this to as a sin of ignorance, then I don't see a difference between the two terms.

MM: Tom, this is very interesting to me. I have more questions now. Where did Sister White say heaven records the sins we would have committed if the opportunity had presented itself?

Tom: I thought you might be interested in the quote, so I went hunting for it in case you asked. Here it is:

quote:

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God's law reaches the feelings and motives, as well as the outward acts. It reveals the secrets of the heart, flashing light upon things before buried in darkness. God knows every thought, every purpose, every plan, every motive. The books of heaven record the sins that would have been committed had there been opportunity. God will bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing. By His law He measures the character of every man. As the artist transfers to the canvas the features of the face, so the features of each individual character are transferred to the books of heaven. God has a perfect photograph of every man's character, and this photograph He compares with His law. He reveals to man the defects that mar his life, and calls upon him to repent and turn from sin (ST July 31, 1901). {5BC 1085.4}

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MM: Can you name examples?

Tom: At the 1888 General Conference session EGW says those present who rejected the message God was giving through His messengers would have treated Christ as the Jews did had He been present among them. That's an example.

MM: How do sins we neglected to do, or were unable to do, dishonor God?

Tom: I don't know the best way of expressing the idea. Maybe the phrase "dishonor God" isn't the best way of putting it. We can unwittingly misrepresent God's character, which in a sense dishonrs Him (although certainly not in the same way that knowingly sinning does). Those who present God as tortuing the wicked for all eternity in hell, or that believe that God predestines people to be lost would fall into this category. They second Satan's lies of God. Even though they may be saved, they are still dishonoring God by misrepresenting His character.

MM: Does the atoning blood of Jesus cover them in the same way it covers sins of ignorance?

Tom: I wrote " The way I would put it is that we have unconscious sin, which does not cause us to be lost, but nevertheless dishonors God." which contains the answer to your question in it.

MM: Jesus also possessed the potential to sin, did heaven impute the sins He was capable of committing but never did?

Tom: No, because there was no sin Christ would have committed had He had the opportunity.

MM: If not, how is His case different than that of born-again believers?

Tom: Christ had no unconscious sin.

Tom, thank you for finding that quote. I can see what you mean about it being difficult to give an example of it. It sounds more like known sins we would have committed had there been the right opportunity.

Your examples of "unconscious sin" sounds more like sins of ignorance to me. Ignorantly advocating a doctrine that unwittingly misrepresents the truth or the character of God certainly isn't a known sin.

quote:

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The way I would put it is that we have unconscious sin, which does not cause us to be lost, but nevertheless dishonors God.

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I'm scratching my head here trying to think of an example of an "unconscious sin" but I'm not coming up with anything. It's not an intentional sin, and it's not an unintentional sin, it's not a sin of ignorance, and it's not an unpardonable sin.

The only other types of sin I can think of are sins of omission [i.e., good deeds purposely left undone] and faithless sins [i.e., good deeds done for the wrong reasons]. But both of these types of sins are considered known sins, and would, therefore, not qualify as "unconscious sins".

Old Tom:I agree with comments that you have made that sin does not need to be committed in order to be put away.

MM: We are in a minority, aren’t we? Do you know of others who believe it, too?

Tom: Yes, I know many who believe this. It was preached by Jones and Waggoner, so anyone familiar with their writings, who agrees with their teachings, is likely to believe this.

Old Tom: Given that the books of heaven record the sins we would have committed had we had the opportunity, it seems to me that this must include unknown sin as well as known sin.

MM: In this case, what is an “unknown sin”?

Tom: When Wesley passed a drunk in the gutter, so goes a story, he replied, "There but for the grace of God go I." The sin of another human being, except for the grace of God, is our sin.

If we don't commit adultery because we just don't happen to be in the position to do so, but we would if we were, that would be an example. If we would break the Sabbath to make some extra money, but don't because we don't have the opportunity, that would be another.

The best example, however, I believe is the crucifixion of Christ. This is the sin of sins which we would have comitted had we had the opportunity.

MM: Are you referring to sins we haven’t committed in the past yet, but might or could in the future?

Tom: Well I didn't make the statement, Ellen White did. So were' really asking what she was referring to. I have given you my opinion just above.

MM: For example, crack babies as adults may or may not use crack, but they might or could in the future. Are these the kinds of sins that are recorded in heaven?

Tom: No, I don't think so.

MM: I'm more inclined, however, to think they involve certain cherished sins that we are only lacking opportunities to act out.

Tom: I think it involves more than this, specifically a realization of our role in the death of Christ.

MM: For example, if so and so wasn't watching me I would do such and such.

Tom: I think this is an excellent example.

MM: Pride of reputation is all that motivates us to restrain ourselves, which is in and of itself a sin. We are as guilty as if we had actually acted upon it. Perhaps what Jesus said about lusting after someone or something but being unable to act it out are the types of sins that are recorded in heaven?

Tom: Yes, this agrees with an example I gave.

Old Tom: I'm sure that the preparation of character of the 144,000 will involve a much deeper perception of the cross of Christ and our involvement in the sin of crucifying Christ.

MM: No doubt about it, and may God help us.

Tom: Hey, we agree on this!