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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13694
08/15/05 02:55 AM
08/15/05 02:55 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
I think this is an excellent example.
And here's another point on which we agree. I also agree with your comments regarding the cross of Christ. I guess we also agree on dormant defects, too.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13695
08/15/05 12:19 PM
08/15/05 12:19 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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"God knows every thought, every purpose, every plan, every motive. The books of heaven record the sins that would have been committed had there been opportunity."
Guys, the text is self-explanatory. Ellen White is just referring to thoughts, purposes, plans and motives which couldn't have been executed for lack of opportunity. But of course the very thoughts, purposes, plans and motives are considered as if they were the act itself.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13696
08/15/05 03:14 PM
08/15/05 03:14 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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What is the "just" qualifying? That is, she is referring to "just" what follows as opposed to what?
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13697
08/16/05 10:43 AM
08/16/05 10:43 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom,
As opposed to your theory of “unconscious sins”.
I understood what you proposed as being expressed by the following example: there are two people interested in renting the house next to yours. One is an 81-year-old granny, the other is a beautiful 25-year-old girl. But the granny arrives ten minutes earlier and rents the house. If the girl had rented the house, you would have committed adultery with her, and this is registered in the books of heaven.
Ellen White is speaking about the following example: the 25-year-old girl rents the house, but she has a handsome boyfriend and would never be interested in you. However, every time you see her, you have impure thoughts. This is registered in the books of heaven.
What is registered in the books of heaven is concrete sins, those you have committed (even in thought or intention), not “potential” sins that no one can prove you would ever commit one day.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13698
08/17/05 02:31 AM
08/17/05 02:31 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
What is registered in the books of heaven is concrete sins, those you have committed (even in thought or intention), not “potential” sins that no one can prove you would ever commit one day.
EGW's quote says "The books of heaven record the sins that would have been committed had there been opportunity." This is referring to sins that *aren't* committed, not concrete sins. They are sins that aren't committed because there was no opportunity. They "would have been" committed, meaning they weren't committed.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13699
08/16/05 04:26 PM
08/16/05 04:26 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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They weren´t committed because they exist only in "thought", "purpose", "plan", or "motive", that is, they didn´t become acts - but it is the same as if the act had been committed.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13700
08/16/05 05:53 PM
08/16/05 05:53 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Jesus laid the principle out that if you think it in your heart then you are guilty of having done it. If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Yes there is a hope!
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13701
08/16/05 08:41 PM
08/16/05 08:41 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
They weren´t committed because they exist only in "thought", "purpose", "plan", or "motive", that is, they didn´t become acts - but it is the same as if the act had been committed.
I think what you're trying to say is that, to use your example, one would be guilty of committing adultery because one would have committed adultery if the other party had been willing. And your point is that this is something which I, in the example, would have been aware of. So the quote doesn't deal with sins of which we aren't aware.
However, the sin of sins for which we are all guilty is the crucifixion of Christ. And this is a sin of which we have the dimmest sense of responsibility. As we become aware of our resonsibilitity, or repentance deepens, if we do not rebel against the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit of Prophesy, in dealing with the 1888 GC in Minneapolis states that the Holy Spirit was insulted; that if Christ had been physically present there He would be been treated the way the Jews treated Him (i.e. crucified) and that this sin would remain on the books of heaven until it is repented of.
These are a couple of examples of sin of which we are unaware.
The work of the Holy Spirit involves convicting us of sin. Until He does this, we are often unaware that we have committed sin. This is another example of sins of which we are unaware. That is, we may have been treating someone in an unChristlike way, without being aware of what we were doing. The Holy Spirit makes us aware of that, and invites us to repent.
Did someone mention this quote? I think Mark did:
quote:
In seasons of temptations we seem to lose sight of the fact that God tests us that our faith may be tried, and be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus. The Lord places us in different positions to develop us. If we have defects of character of which we are not aware, he gives us discipline that will bring those defects to our knowledge, that we may overcome them. It is his providence that brings us into varying circumstances. In each new position, we meet a different class of temptations. How many times, when we are placed in some trying situation, we think, "This is a wonderful mistake. How I wish I had stayed where I was before." But why is it that you are not satisfied?--It is because your circumstances have served to bring new defects in your character to your notice; but nothing is revealed but that which was in you. What should you do when you are tried by the providences of the Lord? --You should rise to the emergency of the case, and overcome your defects of character. {RH, August 6, 1889 par. 3}
This seems to be dealing with the same principle, that we commit sins of which we are not aware.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13702
08/17/05 01:14 PM
08/17/05 01:14 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom,
I’m getting confused about what you mean. Although Peter was not aware of it, he was harboring prejudice against the gentiles, and the Holy Spirit convicted him of his sin. He was not aware of it, but he had been committing that sin. This sin is an unconscious sin, but it cannot be classified as a sin “that would have been committed had there been opportunity”.
What you seem to be referring to is sinful traits of character yet unmanifested. For instance, until I faced suffering, I was not aware I was prone to self-pity.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13703
08/17/05 01:23 PM
08/17/05 01:23 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Let's take the specific case of the crucifixion of Christ. Any of us, apart from the grace of God, would have killed Him. We are all alike guilty of that sin.
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