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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Charity] #137168
10/30/11 12:23 AM
10/30/11 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

This next quote is also fascinating:
Quote:

When the plagues of God shall come upon the earth hail, will fall upon the wicked about the weight of a talent. . . . But there are mercies mixed with judgment. Revelation 7 and 8:3, 4. The Lord has a people whom He will preserve. John beheld the "four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree" (Rev. 7:1, 3) till the seal of the living God shall be placed upon those who love God and keep His commandments.{15MR 220.1, 2.}



I've studied this quote before, but this morning it struck me that she is saying the final sealing takes place during the plagues and trumpets. That agrees with Ezekiel 9 and 10. In those chapters the sealing happens while 'Jerusalem' is being judged, presently underway IMO, and once the man in linen is finished then fire is scattered on the city and that corresponds IMO to the latter rain.


No, I disagree.
She consistantly says the sealing takes place PRIOR to the plagues.
The latter rain takes place PRIOR to the final sealing.

Quote:
Before the work is closed up and the sealing of God's people is finished, we shall receive the outpouring of the Spirit of God. Angels from heaven will be in our midst. {Mar 212.1}


Both scripture (Rev. 7) and EGW say that the four angels hold the four winds of strife until all the saints are sealed, then they are released and the plagues begin.

Quote:
When our High Priest has finished his work in the Sanctuary, he will stand up, put on the garments of vengeance, and then the seven last plagues will be poured out. I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the Sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues.{EW 36}

The sealing time is very short, and will soon be over. Now is the time, while the four angels are holding the four winds, to make our calling and election sure. {EW 58}


There are more quotes -- but from these we can see the sequence.

1. The latter rain falls.
2. The sealing is completed.
3. Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary is finished
4. The angels let loose the four winds
5. The plagues fall.


The quote you gave does NOT upset this sequence.
If you read it in context you will see she is talking about a hail storm they were in.

Again the context is ..... out.
The hailstorm reminded her that during the seventh plague there will be hail "the weight of a talent".

According to all her other writings, by that time the angel's have long let go of the four winds, and the wrath of God is poured out without mercy upon those who do not have the seal of God.

BUT NOW (BEFORE Christ's work in the sanctuary is completed) these judgements (as in the hail they experenced) are still mixed with mercy. The winds of strife are still being held.

Read the WHOLE passage in 15MR 220-226 It's an urgent appeal to wake up NOW, to proclaim the gospel NOW, while the angels are still holding the four winds.

There is no need at all to bring in strange sequences from a passage out of context that upset the clear writings.

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Charity] #137169
10/30/11 12:38 AM
10/30/11 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

Regarding whether there is any time prophecy after 1844, Elder N Restrepo, recently appointed president of Hartland Institute, successor of Colin Standish, gave a sermon a few months ago called "Time No Longer".

After listening to it carefully more than once I wrote the following letter to him:
Quote:
Dear Elder:

I listened to one of your sermons on CD called Time No Longer and you made some excellent points on time setting. You developed the thought that time setting inevitably leads to excitement rather than real revival very well.

I respectfully believe though that you went too far in that you didn’t qualify the idea by the following verse which says that prophetic time ends when the seventh trumpet sounds: “. . .that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.” Rev 10:6 and 7.


The seventh trumpet began to sound in 1844.

Thus "time shall be no longer" means the prophetic timelines ENDED in 1844.

Revelation 10 describes the great disappointment.

After the disappointment the seventh trumpet began to sound.

During the seventh trumpet "the temple in heaven is opened and the ark of the covenant is seen".
When?

Quote:
"The temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." [REV. 11:19.] The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," this apartment was opened only upon the great day of atonement, for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and the ark of his testament was seen, points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, in 1844, as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. Those who by faith followed their great High Priest, as he entered upon his ministry in the most holy place, beheld the ark of his testament. As they had studied the subject of the sanctuary, they had come to understand the Saviour's change of ministration, and they saw that he was now officiating before the ark of God, pleading his blood in behalf of sinners. {GC88 433.1}

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Charity] #137170
10/30/11 12:59 AM
10/30/11 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
William Miller taught, correctly in my view, that time is ‘no longer’ when the seventh angel sounds and the mystery of God is finished – that is, at the end of probation.
While Ellen White appears to apply the phrase “time no longer” differently than Miller, she has left us only one known exposition on Revelation 10.


William Miller didn't have the sanctuary message. William Miller thought Christ was returning in 1844. So of course he had to interpert this to fit his understanding.

EGW, as I showed in my last post, realized that the seventh trumpet was announcing the day of atonement when Christ entered the MOST HOLY PLACE to do His final work.
The seventh trumpet begins in 1844 and covers the time period from 1844 when Christ goes before the Father to be given the kingdom, (see Dan. 7:10-11) till He comes to claim the kingdom.

But there are NO timelines to mark how long probation continues to last or when it will end, or how long the plagues last or the Sunday law lasts etc. etc.

She clearly states over and over again that there are no timelines after 1844.

Actually she has more to say concerning Rev.10.

Quote:
"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer" (Rev. 10:5, 6). This message announces the end of the prophetic periods. The disappointment of those who expected to see our Lord in 1844 was indeed bitter to those who had so ardently looked for His appearing. It was in the Lord's order that this disappointment should come, and that hearts should be revealed. {2SM 108.1}


And notice even the quotes you gave show that she did NOT agree with Miller:

Quote:
This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {7BC 971.7}

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: dedication] #137171
10/30/11 01:09 AM
10/30/11 01:09 AM
dedication  Online Content
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The times, time and half a time in Daniel 12 connect to
the times, time and dividing a time in Daniel 7, they connect to the 1260 days, and the 42 months ALL of which refer to the 1260 years from 538 to 1798.


Quote:
[quoted REV. 11:2-11.] The periods here mentioned--"forty and two months," and "a thousand two hundred and threescore days"--are the same, alike representing the time in which the church of Christ was to suffer oppression from Rome. The 1260 years of papal supremacy began with the establishment of the papacy in A. D. 538, and would therefore terminate in 1798.{GC88 266}

The forty and two months are the same as the "time and times and the dividing of time," three years and a half, or 1260 days, of Daniel 7,--the time during which the papal power was to oppress God's people. This period, as stated in preceding chapters, began with the establishment of the papacy, A. D. 538, and terminated in 1798. At that time, when the papacy was abolished and the pope made captive by the French army, the papal power received its deadly wound, and the prediction was fulfilled, "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity." {GC88 439.2}

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: dedication] #137177
10/30/11 02:55 PM
10/30/11 02:55 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
1. The latter rain falls.
2. The sealing is completed.
3. Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary is finished
4. The angels let loose the four winds
5. The plagues fall.

I agree. The amount of time between the close of probation and the moment people are caught up to meet Jesus in the air will be short - probably less than a few weeks. Whether or not the "number of days" begins when probation closes or when the Father announces the day and hour of Jesus' arrival wouldn't matter so much if the entire period is less than a few weeks.

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Mountain Man] #137179
10/30/11 07:53 PM
10/30/11 07:53 PM
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Charity  Offline
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Quote:
That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {7BC 971.7}


I agree with this quote and all of the others as well. Like I say, we have to reconcile these with her other equally important statements: For example, the trumpets and seals and plagues are all future according to some of her statements. Yes, the seventh trumpet began to sound in 1844 but she applies all seven to the future as well.

But regarding the holding of the winds, if the trumpets are in the past, the winds were released long ago because the angels loosen their hold at trumpet number 1 and completely release them when commanded to by the voice from the horns of the golden altar at the sixth. That appears to correspond with the time the sealing is complete.

Yes, the people won't have a message on a time for the return of Christ. But, thankfully, scripture assures us of the prophetic gift to the very end.

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: dedication] #137182
10/30/11 11:19 PM
10/30/11 11:19 PM
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Charity  Offline
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In my effort to harmonize her statements I've shifted back and forth on whether the plagues and trumpets are concurrent. Most people who see a future application to the trumpets place the plagues after the trumpets because of Ellen White's statements that put the close of probation at the start of the first plague.

It's her recurring statements that equate the Loud Cry with Armageddon that, right or wrong, cause me to think they may be concurrent. Have another look at Dedication's comment and her statement:
Originally Posted By: dedication

The latter rain will PREPARE people to face the battle, that is true enough, but the latter rain comes BEFORE the battle.


Quote:

The angel, the mighty angel from heaven, is to lighten the earth with his glory, while he cries mightily with a loud voice, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen" (Rev. 18:2). Oh, how I wish the church to arise and shine because the glory of the Lord has risen upon her. What can we not do in God if every human agency is doing its very utmost! "Without Me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5). We would lose faith and courage in the conflict if we were not sustained by the power of God. Every form of evil is to spring into intense activity. Evil angels unite their powers with evil men, and as they have been in constant conflict and attained an experience in the best modes of deception and battle, and have been strengthening for centuries, they will not yield the last great final contest without a desperate struggle. All the world will be on one side or the other of the question. The battle of Armageddon will be fought, and that day must find none of us sleeping. Wide-awake we must be, as wise virgins having oil in our vessels with our lamps. What is this? Grace, Grace. {14MR 286.3}



This is one of a handful of statements where she equates Armageddon with the Loud Cry of Revelation 18. Have a look at the others as you're able by doing a search of 'Armageddon'.

On the other hand, Miller applied the first six plagues from 1529 to his day - the 1840's. If we use his application as a template for a future application, then the trumpets do start well before the plagues. I'll try to develop some of these ideas more as I have time. smile

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Charity] #137189
10/31/11 10:24 AM
10/31/11 10:24 AM
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I’m going to quote some of Wm. Miller’s thoughts on Armageddon below. I’d urge you my friends not to dismiss Miller out of hand. I’m not endorsing everything he says, but given the high regard of the Holy Spirit for Miller’s work and the ringing endorsements of Ellen White of Miller’s prophetic insight, we run too high a risk if we’re dismissive of his thoughts.
Quote:
"And he gathered them together into a place called, in the Hebrew tongue, Armageddon;" that is, "Where the Lord will declare his precious fruit." This gathering is the same spoken of in Matt. xxv. 32, "And before him shall be gathered all nations; and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats." In the place Armageddon, the Lord will manifest who are his; he will separate the chaff from the wheat, the wicked from the just. The wheat he will gather into his garner; they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, while the chaff will be burnt with unquenchable fire. His own right hand shall save us while his last plague shall be poured out upon the head of his enemies.

"And the seventh angel poured his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven from the throne, saying, It is done." The seventh and last vial of God's wrath will be poured into the air about the year 1840, if my former calculations are correct, when this judgment will have a quick and rapid circulation over the whole globe. Like the air, it will pervade every kingdom, circulate into every nation, sow the seeds of anarchy in every society, and disorganize every bond of union among men, except the gospel. Wm Miller in Evidence from the Scripture and Hisotry of the Second Coming of Christ About the Year 1843. Lecture 15.


Miller believed, like Ellen White, that Armageddon was not so much a physical battle as the time when the Lord separates the sheep from the goats. Miller, speaking of Armageddon, says “His own right hand shall save us while his last plague shall be poured out upon the head of his enemies.”

He goes on in the next paragraph to say he believed the seventh plague would be poured out beginning ‘about the year 1840’! Interesting. Why 1840? He doesn’t tell us here or anywhere else that I know of. But 1840 is three years before 1843, which is the year he expected the 2300 days to end when he gave this lecture. What scriptures refer to about a three year period before the return of Christ?

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Mountain Man] #137190
10/31/11 12:34 PM
10/31/11 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
Could you please point it out where it says He is immediately on his way to earth when he leaves the sanctuary. There is nothing to suggest Jesus doesn't remain in heaven while the angels go forth to release the four winds.

Other than what I posted above, I'm not sure I can prove Jesus remains in heaven, somewhere outside the confines of the most holy place, while the holy angels are on earth pouring out the plagues. "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." They follow Jesus and pour out the plagues on earth, which suggests Jesus isn't in heaven while they are on earth.
If you are referring to Revelation 19, isn't that at the second coming and therefore not relevant to pouring out the plagues?

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: dedication] #137193
10/31/11 12:56 PM
10/31/11 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: dedication
1. The latter rain falls.
2. The sealing is completed.
3. Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary is finished
4. The angels let loose the four winds
5. The plagues fall.

I agree. The amount of time between the close of probation and the moment people are caught up to meet Jesus in the air will be short - probably less than a few weeks. Whether or not the "number of days" begins when probation closes or when the Father announces the day and hour of Jesus' arrival wouldn't matter so much if the entire period is less than a few weeks.

Is that because you believe and trust that all of that can happen in a short time, but you cannot believe and trust that all that can happen in a number of weeks?

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