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Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: dedication] #137176
10/30/11 02:01 PM
10/30/11 02:01 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The law to stone sabbath keepers and blasphemers was NEVER given to the Romans.
That is a great fallacy in your position.
The stoning laws ENDED with the sacrificial laws, they are NO LONGER IN FORCE, and definitely not given to Rome to execute!

If they trumpt it, it was ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO DO SO. It was NEVER given them by God. For secular power to trump authority over how people are to worship God is called ABOMINATION.

They may have taken over civil authority, but their taking over religious authority over God's people was WRONG and very bad behavior.


Mrs. White tells us, dedication, that the Romans were permitted to have power over the laws of capital punishment. I'm not sure why you consider such to be in the category of a "moral law" (in your words, a "religious" one) and not a "civil law". If it were a "religious" law, and NOT a "civil" law, why was it ended at the cross?

However, Mrs. White says the Roman authority superseded that of the Jews, with special mention of the laws of capital punishment. She says, furthermore, that this was permitted by God--which to me is essentially saying that God had taken this authority from the Jews. Mrs. White tells us the reason God ordained it this way. Read the following passage to learn of the reason. (I'm giving two paragraphs ahead of the principal passage, both for context, and to bring out the fact that the Romans did indeed execute capital punishments.)

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The discipline of the Roman army was very severe. A sentinel found sleeping at his post was punishable with death. The Jews realized the advantage of having such a guard about the tomb of Jesus. They placed a seal upon the stone that closed the sepulcher, that it might not be disturbed without the fact being known, and took every precaution against the disciples practicing any deception in regard to the body of Jesus. But all their plans and precautions only served to make the triumph of the resurrection more complete, and to more fully establish its truth. {3SP 179.1}

How must God and his holy angels have looked upon all those preparations to guard the body of the world's Redeemer! How weak and foolish must those efforts have seemed! The words of the psalmist picture this scene: "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together against the Lord, and against his Anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall have them in derision." Roman guards and Roman arms were powerless to confine the Lord of life within the narrow inclosure of the sepulcher. Christ had declared that he had power to lay down his life and to take it up again. The hour of his victory was near. {3SP 179.2}

God had ruled the events clustering around the birth of Christ. There was an appointed time for him to appear in the form of humanity. A long line of inspired prophecy pointed to the coming of Christ to our world, and minutely described the manner of his reception. Had the Saviour appeared at an earlier period in the world's history, the advantages gained to Christians would not have been so great, as their faith would not have been developed and strengthened by dwelling upon the prophecies which stretched into the far future, and recounted the events which were to transpire. {3SP 180.1}

Because of the wicked departure of the Jews from God, he had allowed them to come under the power of a heathen nation. Only a certain limited power was granted the Jews; even the Sanhedrim was not allowed to pronounce final judgment upon any important case which involved the infliction of capital punishment. A people controlled, as were the Jews, by bigotry and superstition, are most cruel and unrelenting. The wisdom of God was displayed in sending his Son to the world at a time when the Roman power held sway. Had the Jewish economy possessed full authority, we should not now have a history of the life and ministry of Christ among men. The jealous priests and rulers would have quickly made away with so formidable a rival. He would have been stoned to death on the false accusation of breaking the law of God. The Jews put no one to death by crucifixion; that was a Roman method of punishment; there would therefore have been no cross upon Calvary. Prophecy would not then have been fulfilled; for Christ was to be lifted up in the most public manner on the cross, as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness. {3SP 180.2}

The Roman power was the instrument in God's hand to prevent the Light of the world from going out in darkness. The cross was lifted, according to the plan of God, in the sight of all nations, tongues, and people, calling their attention to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world. {3SP 181.1}

Had the coming of Christ been deferred many years later, until the Jewish power had become still less, prophecy would have failed of its fulfillment; for it would not have been possible for the Jews, with their waning power, to have influenced the Roman authorities to sign the death-warrant of Jesus upon the lying charges presented, and there would have been no cross of Christ erected upon Calvary. Soon after the Saviour's execution the method of death by crucifixion was abolished. The scenes which took place at the death of Jesus, the inhuman conduct of the people, the supernatural darkness which veiled the earth, and the agony of nature displayed in the rending of the rocks and the flashing of the lightning, struck them with such remorse and terror, that the cross, as an instrument of death, soon fell into disuse. At the destruction of Jerusalem, when mob power again obtained control, crucifixion was again revived for a time, and many crosses stood upon Calvary. {3SP 181.2}

Christ coming at the time and in the manner which he did was a direct and complete fulfillment of prophecy. The evidence of this, given to the world through the testimony of the apostles and that of their contemporaries, is among the strongest proofs of the Christian faith. We were not eye-witnesses of the miracles of Jesus, which attest his divinity; but we have the statements of his disciples who were eye-witnesses of them, and we see by faith through their eyes, and hear through their ears; and our faith with theirs grasps the evidence given. {3SP 182.1}


So now, does the above passage make it appear that the Romans were illegally doing God's bidding? Did God view their prevention of Jesus' stoning by the Pharisees as an "abomination?" You have used some strong words--in all caps. Where is your scripture to support them?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Green Cochoa] #137184
10/31/11 12:21 AM
10/31/11 12:21 AM
dedication  Online Content
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OK, let's back track here.

The subject of this forum concerns the validity of stoning people for SABBATH BREAKING. Are Sabbath breakers to be put to death?

That's the topic, am I right?
That's the subject?

There is no question about the historical fact that Israel was under "heathen" control for pretty much all of the 490 years leading up to and including Christ's coming.

There gained judicial authority from the Persians in 457 BC.
Around 336 BC Alexander the Great came along, and peaceably became the master of the whole area, including Palestine. After his death Judea was batted back and forth between the Seleucids and Ptolemies and subjected to hellenization. The Ptolemies, who controlled Palestine for the first 80 or so years, were fairly tolerant and allowed considerable self rule. In 200 BC the Seleucids gained control of Palestine, and Jewish freedoms were definitely compromised. The Maccabees managed to regain independance for a short while, so for the first time in many centuries the Jews were politically, religiously, and economically free. But the Maccabees were NO angels! They took over authority like kings and priests, and infighting, intrigue, and discontent was at an all time high! Civil war was raging and ruining the the nation.
Finally the Maccabean (or Hasmoneans) made a deal with Rome for protection and help (bad move?). The Romans were happy to respond. Pompey arrived in 63 BC. The one Jewish faction in the civil war allowed him into Jerusalem, while the other faction was barricading themselves in the temple (It was the ones in the temple that had called for help!!!)
But Pompey sided with the other side, and attacked the temple, broke down the wall and entered. Capturing it, and according to the Jews desecrated the temple.
Many Jews died.

But now Palestine was under Roman authority.
There is no question about that. The Jews had made a mess of self government.

So -- yes there is no question that the Romans were in control. And yes, God allowed it.

However, that is not the issue in this discussion.

The issue is whether the stoning laws are still in effect for Sabbath breakers.

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Green Cochoa] #137185
10/31/11 01:15 AM
10/31/11 01:15 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: dedication
The law to stone sabbath keepers and blasphemers was NEVER given to the Romans.
That is a great fallacy in your position.
The stoning laws ENDED with the sacrificial laws, they are NO LONGER IN FORCE, and definitely not given to Rome to execute!

If they trumpt it, it was ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO DO SO. It was NEVER given them by God. For secular power to trump authority over how people are to worship God is called ABOMINATION.

They may have taken over civil authority, but their taking over religious authority over God's people was WRONG and very bad behavior.


{Quoted EGW}

So now, does the above passage make it appear that the Romans were illegally doing God's bidding? Did God view their prevention of Jesus' stoning by the Pharisees as an "abomination?" You have used some strong words--in all caps. Where is your scripture to support them?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


The abomination comes in when the Romans take up the responsibility to execute, torture, and/or exile people who keep the Sabbath or in other ways disagree with the Roman state religion. Feb. 28, 380 AD the edict of the Emperors Gratian, ValentinianII and Theodosius I established Christian Catholicism as the State Religion.

The Roman bishops (popes) urged the emperors to defend the faith and exterminate or exile all "heretics".

Yes, this was part of the abomination that was set up -- using force to extinquish all opposition, and using scripture to justify killing or exiling anyone they considered to be undermining the so called one and only true faith as given to the one claiming to be "God's representative" the pope.

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: dedication] #137187
10/31/11 01:49 AM
10/31/11 01:49 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Understand --
When the Papacy gains primacy over the kings, as the self proclaimed "vicar of Christ" they will believe they have a theocracy -- where God's voice directs the affairs of the human race.

Only it won't be God's voice at all.

The penalties against false worship or lack of worship are not given into human hands, when human powers take that responsibility upon themselves they are part of the abomination, God has reserved for Himself the judgment and the execution.



Quote:
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:
5:27 And has given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath

Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? or why do you set at nought your brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.





Last edited by dedication; 10/31/11 01:53 AM.
Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Mountain Man] #137195
10/31/11 01:08 PM
10/31/11 01:08 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
M: ". . . seek Jesus' counsel before enforcing certain laws". Seems so simple.

k: You're kidding, right? Scriptural support was the request.

M: Note the many times Jews sought answers to difficult cases through the Urim and Thummin. In particular, note how godly men, like Moses, first sought answers from Jesus before proceeding with matters dealing with the death of law-breakers. Is it possible such biblical precedence recommends others do the same?

It seems you are exchanging laws with cases.

Did the Jews and Moses seek answers through the Urim and Thummin before proceeding with matters only dealing with "death" of law-breakers?

The death of Jesus stands in stark contradiction on the opposing side. Which was decided before the death of Jesus.

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: dedication] #137196
10/31/11 01:28 PM
10/31/11 01:28 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: kland

So why do we still kill / electrocute / or shoot down the murderer? Or are you narrowing it to a very specific form of capital punishment?


we aren't talking about keeping murderers and thieves off the street, we are talking about BREAKING COMMANDMENTS that are part of our commitment to God.
You don't think not murdering is a COMMANDMENT of God? Is it merely a civil authority thing, and if the civil laws change (as in some areas), there would be no problem with murdering people? Following the same line of thought, what if the civil authorities make civil laws for keeping "some kind of law and order" and force Sunday worship?

Quote:
there is still need for civil authorities to keep some kind of law and order.

but civil authorities are NOT to legislate or enforce matters pertaining to worship and commitment to God.

Or do you think murdering is not a matter of worship and commitment to God? Which of the commandments are? What says we don't kill for certain commandments, but we do for others? Could you provide a list of which ones are which and explain why we should accept your list?
What if the question instead was,
"Why arent Adventist stoning the Murderer"?

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: kland] #137202
11/01/11 01:36 AM
11/01/11 01:36 AM
dedication  Online Content
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What strange questions you ask and strange conclusions you come to. It's so far out from anything I said, I'm not sure I should even answer.

It should be basic understanding that no religious organization is to kill anyone.
Religion is NOT to mix with civil law. It's called "spiritual adultery" when religion uses civil power to enforce worship laws.
Civil law has the right to deal with thieves and murderers BUT NOT with how or on which day we celebrate the Sabbath and how we worship God.
God's people are to keep all ten of the commandments and love God with all their heart soul and strength and their neighbor as themselves.

That is basic Adventist understanding. I'm surprised I need to spell it out.

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: dedication] #137203
11/01/11 02:08 AM
11/01/11 02:08 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: dedication
It should be basic understanding that no religious organization is to kill anyone.

Ever? And what exactly do you mean by "organization?" Was Israel a "religious organization" when God asked them to stone Achan and the Sabbath breaker? If I understand it thus, are you saying I lack "basic understanding?"

I prefer to understand the Bible than to understand such "basics."
Originally Posted By: dedication
Religion is NOT to mix with civil law.


No? Why, then, did God give the people civil laws in His theocracy, and right alongside of the religious laws?

It should be noted that while the principle of separation of church and state has been held in high regard among Americans since the Constitution of the United States was formed, it is not a principle which is clearly held aloft or spelled out anywhere in the Bible.

Originally Posted By: dedication
It's called "spiritual adultery" when religion uses civil power to enforce worship laws.

I've always thought it was called "spiritual adultery" when people turned away from God to worship idols or false gods.

Originally Posted By: dedication
Civil law has the right to deal with thieves and murderers BUT NOT with how or on which day we celebrate the Sabbath and how we worship God.
God's people are to keep all ten of the commandments and love God with all their heart soul and strength and their neighbor as themselves.

If you make this statement in regard to modern civil law, I would concur. To broadly apply this to all circumstances and to all times would be a little short-sighted.

Times and circumstances do change, as God permits.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Green Cochoa] #137205
11/01/11 03:12 AM
11/01/11 03:12 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
So -- yes there is no question that the Romans were in control. And yes, God allowed it.

However, that is not the issue in this discussion.

The issue is whether the stoning laws are still in effect for Sabbath breakers.

The fact that God has used pagan governments to govern His people multiple times throughout history is clear. And God has honored those who were respectful of that government. That doesn't mean that all laws those governments made were proper and had to be followed. But God sets up kings and takes them down. Ultimately, He is in charge.

The situation with the Romans in Jesus' time is integral to understanding how we are to relate with the governments of our time.

Let's take the patriarch Jacob for an example: He had four wives. That would be illegal in America today. But God never once commanded that he give up all but one of them. In fact, the twelve tribes of Israel descended from all four of them. Polygamy was permitted at that time. It is not permitted now. If a modern "Jacob" (or "John") selects four wives to marry, it would be against our nation's laws. Because God wants us to respect those laws, it would also be against God's own law--for He says we are to "obey them that have the rule over you." As this is not a matter of "religion" per se, God expects us to follow the authority under which we find ourselves.

If the government says we must pay tax, then so does God. If the government says our young men must register for the selective service at the age of 18, then it honors God for us to do so. God expects us to be exemplary citizens insofar as possible. Such were Daniel and his three friends in Babylon. Did they violate their consciences? No. But did they obey at all possible times? Yes.

Back to stoning. Our modern government does not allow it. God expects us to follow the governmental authority on it. It would bring His name into disrepute to have His followers make a scene by stoning some Sabbath breaker, adulterer, murderer, etc. against the government's authority. God has allowed the judicial system of the government to replace the system He ordained for His people during the times of His theocracy.

That is the reason why we cannot stone Sabbath breakers today.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Green Cochoa] #137206
11/01/11 04:46 AM
11/01/11 04:46 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Your reasoning is haywire.

Yes, we are to be law abiding citizens.
But what you are teaching is simply the agenda that will cause the great time of trouble.



Over in Muslim countries they still stone people, I suppose you think that's OK? After all their government allows it.

I'm leaving this forum. I'm getting sick to the stomach from it. Can't believe people actually think those laws are still in effect only held back because government won't allow it.

The time of trouble is NEAR when even people on our own forums try to persuade us that separation of church and state isn't really biblical and the stoning laws are still in effect, just that government won't allow them.

That reasoning would also mean,
if government says keep Sunday not Saturday we'd have to obey them rather than God as well.


The stoning law in its roll of demonstrating that the wages of sin is death, ended with the sacrificial laws, at the cross.
The cross was the greatest demonstration that the wages of sin is death -- Christ died that death in our place, all we need to do is accept His salvation, repent of our sins and follow Him.

To say governments are to be obeyed above God's law is not good reasoning. God Himself ended those penalities and reserves the right to judge every person in the end, for He alone is perfectly righteous and just, merciful, whose greatest longing is for people to forsake the road of sin that leads to death and turn to Him for life everlasting.

















Last edited by dedication; 11/01/11 07:13 AM.
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