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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#137402
11/09/11 05:26 PM
11/09/11 05:26 PM
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The plagues are poured out after Jesus leaves the sanctuary (most holy, holiest) and dons the garments of vengeance. Sometime afterward the "voice of God" is uttered. The "number of days" begins the moment Jesus leaves the holiest (sanctuary, most holy).
MM, the word tarry conveys a negativeness. Just not coming to earth is different than "tarrying". Do you see Him "tarrying" now and for the last hundreds of years? I see Him as just not coming. Could you deal with the quote I listed with the "thens" which shows the voice of God and then laying off His garment and then taking His place on the cloud?
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#137424
11/10/11 11:47 AM
11/10/11 11:47 AM
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Also, Ellen did mention a tarrying time: As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus' mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment. {EW 280.2}
Then I saw Jesus lay off His priestly attire and clothe Himself with His most kingly robes. Upon His head were many crowns, a crown within a crown. Surrounded by the angelic host, He left heaven. The plagues were falling upon the inhabitants of the earth. Some were denouncing God and cursing Him. Others rushed to the people of God and begged to be taught how they might escape His judgments. But the saints had nothing for them. The last tear for sinners had been shed, the last agonizing prayer offered, the last burden borne, the last warning given. The sweet voice of mercy was no more to invite them. When the saints, and all heaven, were interested for their salvation, they had no interest for themselves. Life and death had been set before them. Many desired life, but made no effort to obtain it. They did not choose life, and now there was no atoning blood to cleanse the guilty, no compassionate Saviour to plead for them, and cry, "Spare, spare the sinner a little longer." All heaven had united with Jesus, as they heard the fearful words, "It is done. It is finished." The plan of salvation had been accomplished, but few had chosen to accept it. And as mercy's sweet voice died away, fear and horror seized the wicked. With terrible distinctness they heard the words, "Too late! too late!" {EW 281.1} "Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment." She refers to this time period as "a moment". If you want the word, "tarry", your quote did provide it. You must be implying a certain short amount of time to "moment". Is that justified? But it is quite obvious that he does "tarry" and the "number of days" do not begin when He leaves the sanctuary.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: kland]
#137429
11/10/11 02:32 PM
11/10/11 02:32 PM
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If you want the word, "tarry", your quote did provide it. You must be implying a certain short amount of time to "moment". Is that justified? But it is quite obvious that he does "tarry" and the "number of days" do not begin when He leaves the sanctuary. Yes, the expression "a moment" denotes a short time. Also, Jesus tarries a moment in the sanctuary. The plagues are not poured out while He is in the sanctuary. They are poured out after He leaves. The moment He leaves is the instant the "number of days" begins. "While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days".
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#137430
11/10/11 03:41 PM
11/10/11 03:41 PM
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MM, the word tarry conveys a negativeness. Just not coming to earth is different than "tarrying". Do you see Him "tarrying" now and for the last hundreds of years? I see Him as just not coming. Could you deal with the quote I listed with the "thens" which shows the voice of God and then laying off His garment and then taking His place on the cloud? I agree Jesus is not tarrying now. He won't "tarry a moment" until after probation closes. Here's the quote you're referring to: About four months since, I had a vision of events, all in the future. And I saw the time of trouble, such as never was,--Jesus told me it was the time of Jacob's trouble, and that we should be delivered out of it by the voice of God. Just before we entered it, we all received the seal of the living God. Then I saw the four Angels cease to hold the four winds. And I saw famine, pestilence and sword, nation rose against nation, and the whole world was in confusion. Then we cried to God for deliverance day and night till we began to hear the bells on Jesus' garment. And I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest, and as he came out we heard the tinkling of bells, and knew our High Priest was coming out. Then we heard the voice of God which shook the heavens and earth, and gave the 144,000 the day and hour of Jesus' coming. Then the saints were free, united and full of the glory of God, for he had turned their captivity. And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood and he laid off his priestly garment and put on his kingly robe, took his place on the cloud which carried him to the east where it first appeared to the saints on earth, a small black cloud, which was the sign of the Son of Man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days, the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet. Ellen G. Harmon {DS, March 14, 1846 par. 2} As you know, details in a prophecy are often presented from beginning to end making it necessary to view subsequent details from different starting points rather than assuming they pick up where the last detail left off. Determining the exact chronology of a prophecy can be somewhat tricky. And, to make matters more challenging, subsequent prophecies provide even more details which must be spliced in the timeline. Here are the details in the prophecy posted above: 1. And I saw the time of trouble, such as never was,--Jesus told me it was the time of Jacob's trouble, and that we should be delivered out of it by the voice of God. 2. Just before we entered it, we all received the seal of the living God. 3. Then I saw the four Angels cease to hold the four winds. 4. And I saw famine, pestilence and sword, nation rose against nation, and the whole world was in confusion. 5. Then we cried to God for deliverance day and night till we began to hear the bells on Jesus' garment. 6. And I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest, and as he came out we heard the tinkling of bells, and knew our High Priest was coming out. 7. Then we heard the voice of God which shook the heavens and earth, and gave the 144,000 the day and hour of Jesus' coming. 8. Then the saints were free, united and full of the glory of God, for he had turned their captivity. 9. And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood and he laid off his priestly garment and put on his kingly robe, took his place on the cloud which carried him to the east where it first appeared to the saints on earth, a small black cloud, which was the sign of the Son of Man. 10. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days, the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet. She uses one of two different phrases to introduce a new detail - 1) "I saw", and 2) "then". Of the list of 10 details, 1 begins after 2 and 3 and ends after 7. 2 and 3 back up and cover details before 1. 4 begins before 1 and escalates through the end of 1. 5 happens after 1 begins but before it ends. 6 happens after 5 begins but before it ends. 7 happens after 6 begins but before it ends. 8 happens after 7 ends. 9 backs up to the beginning of 6 and ends after 10. 10 backs up to the beginning of 6 and ends before the end of 9. Here's the point: "And I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest, and as he came out we heard the tinkling of bells, and knew our High Priest was coming out. Then we heard the voice of God which shook the heavens and earth, and gave the 144,000 the day and hour of Jesus' coming." The "number of days" begins the moment Jesus rises up, boards the flaming cloud, and leaves the holiest bound for the East. God announces the day and hour of Jesus' arrival sometime after Jesus leaves the holiest.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#137447
11/11/11 01:54 PM
11/11/11 01:54 PM
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As you know, details in a prophecy are often presented from beginning to end making it necessary to view subsequent details from different starting points rather than assuming they pick up where the last detail left off. Determining the exact chronology of a prophecy can be somewhat tricky. And, to make matters more challenging, subsequent prophecies provide even more details which must be spliced in the timeline. Here are the details in the prophecy posted above:
Is that what we have to do with this one, too? In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus' mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment. {EW 280.2}
But how do we know that your splicing is correct and someone else's isn't? The "number of days" begins the moment Jesus rises up, boards the flaming cloud, and leaves the holiest bound for the East. But that's not true. It's after He boards the cloud. Otherwise, we each can insert our own splices.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#137448
11/11/11 01:59 PM
11/11/11 01:59 PM
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Yes, the expression "a moment" denotes a short time. Also, Jesus tarries a moment in the sanctuary. The plagues are not poured out while He is in the sanctuary. They are poured out after He leaves. The moment He leaves is the instant the "number of days" begins. "While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days". How long is a moment to God? And that quote said after He left the most holy place, but maybe we have to change the sentence order around?
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: kland]
#137462
11/11/11 04:41 PM
11/11/11 04:41 PM
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Kland, I appreciate the effort you've invested here. You believe the "number of days" begins after the "voice of God" is uttered. I believe it begins the moment Jesus leaves the Holiest. The "tarried a moment" happens within the "number of days". It is apparent we are not going to agree on this point. Time will tell, eh! Hopefully sooner than later, right!
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#137497
11/14/11 03:18 PM
11/14/11 03:18 PM
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Just to clarify based upon the quotes, I believe the number of days begins after He is on the cloud when it is passing from Holiest to the east.
But, it would be great if you are right! If the time of trouble only lasts for a few or "number of days" and not years, we don't have much to worry about. I can be at peace that it won't be all that hard to go through in just days. Makes me feel much safer as it will all be over with before it starts. Hope you're right.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: kland]
#137511
11/15/11 03:16 PM
11/15/11 03:16 PM
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Thank you for the clarification. You also believe, correct me if I'm mistaken, the "voice of God" is uttered and then Jesus boards the East bound cloud. Yes, I hope the "number of days" marks the entire great time of trouble from the close of probation to the arrival of Jesus. However, there will also be a time of trouble that precedes the close of probation. Ellen wrote: 1. On page 33 is given the following: "I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers; and that the Sabbath is the great question to unite the hearts of God's dear, waiting saints. I saw that God had children who do not see and keep the Sabbath. They have not rejected the light upon it. And at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully." {EW 85.2}
This view was given in 1847 when there were but very few of the Advent brethren observing the Sabbath, and of these but few supposed that its observance was of sufficient importance to draw a line between the people of God and unbelievers. Now the fulfilment of that view is beginning to be seen. "The commencement of that time of trouble," here mentioned does not refer to the time when the plagues shall begin to be poured out, but to a short period just before they are poured out, while Christ is in the sanctuary. At that time, while the work of salvation is closing, trouble will be coming on the earth, and the nations will be angry, yet held in check so as not to prevent the work of the third angel. At that time the "latter rain," or refreshing from the presence of the Lord, will come, to give power to the loud voice of the third angel, and prepare the saints to stand in the period when the seven last plagues shall be poured out. {EW 85.3} She says "a short period", fraught with trouble, will precede the great time of trouble. In the book - Last Day Events chapter 10 The Little Time of Trouble - this "short period" is described in detail. It is during this time that the martyrs will be mowed down by the millions for refusing to desecrate the Sabbath. Many other sad and horrible things will happen during this time. I was a POW for two weeks in the military. There was nothing short or easy about it.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#137520
11/16/11 11:48 AM
11/16/11 11:48 AM
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You are correct. I believe the voice of God is heard giving the day and hour, then He "boards" the cloud.
Regarding the rest, were we talking about different times of trouble? The voice of God comes after the time of trouble I had been talking about, the 3.5 years. Could the time of trouble you were talking about be maybe a symbolic hour in Revelation? And could she be referring to even another than those two?
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