Old Tom:One i[s] freed from sin when one believes in Christ.

Mike:That’s what I believe, too. But your previous posts seem to imply that we can be born again with all manner of what you call “unknown” defective traits of character and not be aware of them.

Tom:I think you're reading that into my posts. In particular, I don't think I've used the term "unknown defective traits of character." That sounds very vague to me, and I doubt I've ever used it.

Old Tom: It's certainly possible to hurt someone with one's words without realizing it.

Mike:Is it the result of “unknown” defects? Or, is it the result of ignorance? Do you see a difference between the two sources of sin?

Tom:The two sources being unknown defects and ignorance? "Unknown" and "ignorance" seem to be denoting the same thing to me.

Old Tom: What does it mean to be a born again believer who is not abiding in Christ?

Mike:You don’t know? Or, are you just wanting to know what I think? It would be nice if you would answer the question, too.

Tom:No, I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me.

Old Tom: As I stated, I think all of them would be covered by selfishness. Why is the particular list in Galatians important to you?

Mike:Okay, do you believe then it is possible to be born again and to unwittingly or unknowingly develop and/or possess one or more of the traits Paul listed while partaking of the divine nature? As soon as you answer this simple question with a direct answer I’ll explain why the list is so important to me.

Tom:I've said they're all covered by selfishness, and it's possible to be selfish without knowing it. To me that's a perfectly adequate answer to your question. I don't understand why you don't consider your question to have been answered.

Old Tom: It is possible, IMO, to not love God with one's whole heart and not be aware of it.

Mike:Is such a state possible while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man as a born again believer?

Tom:Yes. It's easy for our heart to deceive us. God can reveal things to us which we were unaware of. I mentioned Ellen White would pray, "Lord, show me the worst of my case." This implies there was something to be shown. Similarly David prayed that God would search his heart, "if there be any wicked way in me."

We also have the Laodecian condition, which I haven't gotten around to posting as a topic. But I am unaware of the Laodecian as being considered as not born again in our (i.e. SDA) tradition. A. T. Jones had a number of sermons in either the 1893 or 1895 General Conference Bulletin which addressed this (my guess would by 1895), and he did not consider the Laodecian to be non-born-again ("un born-again" (?)). The Spirit of Prophesy refers to the message he gave as "the message of God to the Laodecian church," so it seems likely to me that he had it right.

BTW it doesn't appear to me that I'm in that much disagreement with you on these points that we are discussing. I know there's some disagreement which is not purely symantical, but I'm not sure yet exactly how to define that.

Tom,

"We should preserve the strictest chastity in thought, and word, and deportment. Let us remember that God sets our secret sins in the light of His countenance. There are thoughts and feelings suggested and aroused by Satan that annoy even the best of men, but if they are not cherished, if they are repulsed as hateful, the soul is not contaminated with guilt, and no other is defiled by their influence. O that we each might become a savor of life unto life to those around us!" {TMK 140.2}

If it is possible to find something at the same time pleasing and hateful, then you can be correct. If you think that Jesus could ever find such a suggestion pleasing (which to me is blasphemy), then you can be correct.

Tom, one more question before I tell you why I am so interested in Paul's list in Galatians.

I take it, from what you have posted so far, that it is possible for a born again believer (who is actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature) to develop and/or possess one or more of the sinful traits of character Paul named without realizing it is morally wrong.

Okay, here's the question - Do you also believe that such believers are also in a saved state?

I think to be in an unsaved state one must be actively fighting against the Spirit of God. Please let me know if this response does not answer your question.

Tom