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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13744
09/13/05 08:22 PM
09/13/05 08:22 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
But in reality, not all temptations are annoying or hateful. Take, for instance, the example I cited a few posts ago. The temptation to indulge a second helping of your favorite dessert is hardly annoying or hateful. Some temptations are not so evil as others.
And that’s in essence the same I posted in reply to that post of yours:
“It depends on the suggestion. Some suggestions just appeal to our human condition and they are not sinful in themselves. There is sin only if you yield to these suggestions independently of God’s will. The suggestion of eating of the fruit was pleasing to Eve, of course, but it would only become a sin if she ate of the fruit.
But would you agree that a suggestion for you to commit adultery with your neighbor is sinful in itself and if you find it pleasing this reveals a sinful tendency in your heart and already constitutes a sin?”
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13745
09/13/05 08:35 PM
09/13/05 08:35 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Rosangela, I can't see how according to what your saying Christ could possibly have been tempted. For example, you write: quote:
the devil won't waste his time tempting me to do what I find hateful or disgusting. He won't tempt me to use drugs, or to smoke, or to drink, or to engage in illicit sex, or to steal. And of course he didn't tempt Christ to do what Christ found hateful.
So what would be an example of something Christ wouldn't find hateful? And what sense to I make out of this temptation?
quote:
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. (Matt 4:8, 9)
How does this fit in with your logic above? It would seem to follow from what you said that the temptation to worship Satan was not hateful or disgusting to Christ. Doesn't that follow?
Also you write:
quote:
When your heart is divided it is because you still love that sin.
I don't see how Christ could possibly have been tempted to do any sin, since that would imply, according to your reasoning, that Christ's heart was divided in relation to the sin that Christ was being tempted to do.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13746
09/13/05 10:14 PM
09/13/05 10:14 PM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom, quote:
So what would be an example of something Christ wouldn't find hateful?
Eating bread after a forty-day fast, proving that He was the Son of God, avoiding suffering and death, for example.
quote:
It would seem to follow from what you said that the temptation to worship Satan was not hateful or disgusting to Christ.
Oh, my, do you think worshipping the devil constituted the temptation? Worshipping Satan was the means to achieve what the temptation proposed. The essence of the last temptation didn’t consist in worshipping Satan, but in avoiding suffering, in obtaining power over the world without having to die on a cross.
“This last temptation was the most alluring of the three. Satan knew that Christ's life must be one of sorrow, hardship, and conflict. And he thought he could take advantage of this fact to bribe Christ to yield his integrity. Satan brought all his strength to bear upon this last temptation, for this last effort was to decide his destiny as to who should be victor. He claimed the world as his dominion, and he was the prince of the power of the air. He bore Jesus to the top of an exceeding high mountain, and then in a panoramic view presented before him all the kingdoms of the world that had been so long under his dominion, and offered them to him in one great gift. He told Christ he could come into possession of the kingdoms of the world without suffering or peril on his part. Satan promises to yield his scepter and dominion, and Christ shall be rightful ruler for one favor from him. All he requires in return for making over to him the kingdoms of the world that day presented before him, is, that Christ shall do him homage as to a superior.
“The eye of Jesus for a moment rested upon the glory presented before him; but he turned away and refused to look upon the entrancing spectacle. He would not endanger his steadfast integrity by dallying with the tempter. When Satan solicited homage, Christ's divine indignation was aroused, and he could no longer tolerate the blasphemous assumption of Satan, or even permit him to remain in his presence. Here Christ exercised his divine authority, and commanded Satan to desist.” {RH, September 1, 1874}
quote:
I don't see how Christ could possibly have been tempted to do any sin, since that would imply, according to your reasoning, that Christ's heart was divided in relation to the sin that Christ was being tempted to do.
Sin does not consist merely in doing wrong things. It may consist in not doing right things, or in doing right things in the wrong way or with a wrong motivation.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13747
09/13/05 10:39 PM
09/13/05 10:39 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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A temptation has to be something you want to do. Obviously Christ would not want to worship Satan, but would he want the earthly kingdoms Satan offered Him? As you point out, that's where the temptation lied. But why should earthly kingdoms hold any allure to Christ?
If temptation to sin only applies to a divided heart, then how could Christ be tempted by an earthly kingdom?
Another question I'm curious to know your response to, could Christ be tempted to look at a woman with impure thoughts?
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13748
09/13/05 10:50 PM
09/13/05 10:50 PM
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5500+ Member
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
But why should earthly kingdoms hold any allure to Christ?
Christ came exactly to obtain the dominion of the world and its kingdoms, and it is this that was secured by the cross and will happen at last (Rev. 11:15).
quote:
Another question I'm curious to know your response to, could Christ be tempted to look at a woman with impure thoughts?
Would you be tempted to look at your mother, your sister or your daughter with impure thoughts? If not, why not?
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13749
09/14/05 02:05 AM
09/14/05 02:05 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Old Tom:Another question I'm curious to know your response to, could Christ be tempted to look at a woman with impure thoughts? R:Would you be tempted to look at your mother, your sister or your daughter with impure thoughts? If not, why not? Tom:I take it this means no, Christ was not tempted to look at a woman with impure thoughts. Extrapolating I would take it that you believe Christ was never tempted sexually once His whole life, correct? Is sexual temptation a sin? In and of itself? (pardon my jumping around here, but I'm just going where your answer seems to be logically leading;if I'm misjudging your thoughts, please correct me) Given this is the case (Christ was not sexually tempted), how do you understand this? quote:
15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
1For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.(Heb. 4:14-5:2)
Or this?
quote:
But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life.(DA 49)
How can Christ give us help in time of need if He knows nothing of our problems? The DA quote says that Christ accepted the results of the working of the law of heredity after 4,000 years of sin, which results were shown by His ancestors, which would be every sort of sin and vice, correct? So having this heredity, how could it possible for Christ not to be affected by that flesh? If Christ was exempt from any temptations of the flesh, how could He share in our temptations?
I also don't understand how if one can only be tempted when one has a divided heart, how Christ could be tempted in any way whatsoever. Let's take the world kingdoms example. You suggest He was tempted because this was a way to cut short His mission, to make it easier (at least, that's how I understood your explanation). But if Christ's heart was undivided regarding not taking the easy way out, how could He be tempted to do this?
Thank you for your responses Rosangela. I'm very interested in your thinking here.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13750
09/14/05 11:43 AM
09/14/05 11:43 AM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
Tom:I take it this means no, Christ was not tempted to look at a woman with impure thoughts.
When I was in the world, I looked at people in one way; after I was born again, I began to look at people with other eyes. This didn’t happen at once; it was a process. It depends on the way your mind works. You can see people as sexual objects or as objects of your tenderness and compassion.
quote:
Extrapolating I would take it that you believe Christ was never tempted sexually once His whole life, correct?
This is improbable but, as I said, one thing is to be the object of a sinful suggestion, and quite another is to find the sinful suggestion pleasing.
First, Christ closed all doors to temptation; He didn’t have one moment in which He wasn’t busy doing something. Second, the task Christ came to do in the world was of such magnitude that it absorbed all His interest and energies.
quote:
How can Christ give us help in time of need if He knows nothing of our problems?
How can Christ help a homosexual, a drunkard or a drug addict if He knows nothing of their problems? As I have already said, the forms are different, but the essence of temptation is always the same. Of one thing we may be sure – Christ’s temptations were much stronger than ours can possibly be.
quote:
If Christ was exempt from any temptations of the flesh, how could He share in our temptations?
Who said He was exempt from any temptations of the flesh?
quote:
I also don't understand how if one can only be tempted when one has a divided heart, how Christ could be tempted in any way whatsoever.
Look, we were discussing what is definitely sinful in itself – if you find the suggestion pleasing it is because you haven’t yet overcome that sin, or your love for that sin.
quote:
But if Christ's heart was undivided regarding not taking the easy way out, how could He be tempted to do this?
There is nothing intrinsically wrong in taking the easy way out. Only masochists like to suffer. Who would like to die a horrible death, and be extremely tortured, both physically and spiritually? Who would like to experience hell, like Christ did, not needing to do that? Who wouldn’t recoil from this experience? Who wouldn’t try to avoid it? We can never even begin to imagine what this experience was.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13751
09/14/05 01:47 PM
09/14/05 01:47 PM
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OP
SDA
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Southwest USA
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Tom, let me see if I understand you correctly. By piecing together your sparse answers and insights here’s what I’m coming up with (please let me know if I’ve gotten it wrong):
You believe born again believers, who are partaking of the divine nature, can develop and/or possess one or more of the sinful character traits Paul listed in Galatians while working and cooperating with the Holy Spirit, rather than fighting against Him, and that they are considered saved in the eyes of God.
Alright, here’s the list again:
1. Adultery
2. Fornication
3. Uncleanness
4. Lasciviousness
5. Idolatry
6. Witchcraft
7. Hatred
8. Variance
9. Emulations
10. Wrath
11. Strife
12. Seditions
13. Heresies
14. Envyings
15. Murders
16. Drunkenness
17. Revellings
Now, you believe a born again believer can be guilty of one or more of these things without realizing it because Holy Spirit hasn’t yet revealed it to him or her. But here’s what Paul wrote about this list of sinful traits: “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”
After listing all the things born again believers will not do Paul goes on to say, “Of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Tom, would you agree that your view of Paul’s list is different than the view he shared about it?
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13752
09/14/05 09:16 PM
09/14/05 09:16 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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When a person grows in Christ, he may act, think, or speak selfishly without being aware of it. Our characters do not become instantly mature once we are born again. We still need to grow up to the full stature of Christ.
If one ignorantly does one of the things on your list, that does not mean he is walking according to the flesh. For example, one could practice fornication without being aware that it is a sin (e.g. be married to more than one woman), but this would not be walking according to the flesh, provided the person was not aware it was a sin.
Or perhaps idolatry would be a better example. Idolatry does not simply cover worshiping idols made of wood or stone, but includes having false concepts of God's character (the Spirit of Prophesy talks about this in the Great Controversy). So one could easily be practicing in ignorance a subtle form of idolatry, which would not count as walking in the flesh provided the Spirit of God had not yet revealed the false concept of God's character to the believer.
To answer your question, no, I don't believe my view of Paul's list is different than his.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13753
09/16/05 01:26 PM
09/16/05 01:26 PM
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OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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quote:
Romans 7 doesn't describe the experience of the born-again believer. And this is not my experience after I have overcome a particular sin.
Rosangela, the man of Romans 7 is a born again believer who understands it is his sinful flesh nature that generates unholy suggestions and feelings. He knows they are nothing more than temptations, and that his new man mind isn’t the one doing it. The “doing it” refers to his flesh communicating sinful suggestions and feelings. It’s talk about actually committing a sin. We know this is true because sinful flesh nature cannot commit a sin; it can only communicate unholy temptations.
quote:
And of course [Satan] didn't tempt Christ to do what Christ found hateful.
Jesus’ experience with sin and temptation, while He walked the earth as a human, would suggest that it is possible for Satan to tempt us with things we find annoying and hateful and disgusting. It is clear that Jesus was tempted in all points that born again believers are tempted in, nevertheless, He found all sin and temptations to be repugnant and repulsive. And yet, He was tempted.
quote:
Sin does not consist merely in doing wrong things. It may consist in not doing right things, or in doing right things in the wrong way or with a wrong motivation.
Amen. But this doesn’t mean Jesus was tempted to do wrongs, too. He was, after all, tempted in all points, right?
quote:
This is improbable but, as I said, one thing is to be the object of a sinful suggestion, and quite another is to find the sinful suggestion pleasing.
Amen. Jesus was tempted in all points as a born again believer, not as an unbeliever. However, He was, nevertheless, tempted in all points. Of course, He was disgusted by them and resisted them immediately, without hesitation, the same as a born again believer.
quote:
Christ’s temptations were much stronger than ours can possibly be.
Amen.
quote:
Look, we were discussing what is definitely sinful in itself – if you find the suggestion pleasing it is because you haven’t yet overcome that sin, or your love for that sin.
But not all temptations, right? Some are less sinful than others and, as such, not as readily resisted or disgusting (i.e., the favorite dessert example).
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