Tom, polygamy isn't one of the things listed by Paul. You added it. And then you assumed if a born again believer has more than one wife he is ignorantly guilty of committing fornication, and that he, therefore, has a defective trait of character.

Well, fornication is premarital sexual relations, and adultery is extra-marital sexual relations. So, technically, if a person is married to more than one spouse it isn't either one.

Either way, it is not possible to ignorantly commit fornication or adultery. It takes a deliberate choice to have sexual relations with someone you are not legally married to. And no born again believer, who is abiding in Jesus, can commit a known sin. Here’s what John said about it:

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Tom, please, we were discussing the SOP quote where she uses the words “rejecting the truth” and “false doctrines”. Peter uses the words “damnable heresy”. Paul uses the word “fables”. So, I’m not making “non-falsifiable” statements, or adding qualifications that change the meaning of previous posts. Such things are called “synonyms”, and I use them to clarify the point, not to change the meaning.

Here’s the quote again:

quote:

---

GC 583
In rejecting the truth, men reject its Author. In trampling upon the law of God, they deny the authority of the Law-giver. It is as easy to make an idol of false doctrines and theories as to fashion an idol of wood or stone. By misrepresenting the attributes of God, Satan leads men to conceive of Him in a false character. With many, a philosophical idol is enthroned in the place of Jehovah; while the living God, as He is revealed in His word, in Christ, and in the works of creation, is worshiped by but few. Thousands deify nature while they deny the God of nature. Though in a different form, idolatry exists in the Christian world today as verily as it existed among ancient Israel in the days of Elijah. The god of many professedly wise men, of philosophers, poets, politicians, journalists--the god of polished fashionable circles, of many colleges and universities, even of some theological institutions--is little better than Baal, the sun-god of Phoenicia. {GC 583.1}

---

You cited this quote to prove that born again believers can ignorantly make an idol out of false doctrine, which is damnable heresy, without realizing it is morally wrong. You did this to prove that it is possible for a born again believer to develop and/or possess one of the character defects Paul listed in Galatians without realizing it is morally wrong. I don’t see how you can quote this passage to prove your point. The insights in this quote do not support the conclusions you derive from it.

Also, I didn’t change the subject. The topic of this thread is “hidden character defects”. Character is the result of choice, not chance. It requires habitual, repetitious actions, whether in thought, word, or deed. To develop sinful traits of character a person must wilfully, knowingly, deliberately choose to violate his or her conscience and convictions.

A defective trait of character is not the result of doing something you believe is right, even if it is wrong. For example, if you honestly and truly believe it is God’s will for you to have more than one spouse, and you believe you are obeying the word and voice of God, then, in the eyes of God, you are not guilty of fornication or adultery, or any other sin. Nor is it considered a hidden character defect.

Mike, you chopped off what you wrote. That's not cool. My statement makes no sense taken out of context. Here's what you wrote:

Old Mike:Neither do I agree with you that a person can reject the truth or idolize an idea, even if it's right, and still be in a saved state.

To this I responded, "None of us on this site agrees with you on all your ideas, so are all of us lost, except for you?"

If you assert that one cannot reject the truth and be in a saved state, then when you disagree with someone, either you or the other person are either not rejecting truth, and hence, based on your own statement, not in a saved state. If you disagree with this, then your statement (the Old Mike one) is false.

Mike:Tom, polygamy isn't one of the things listed by Paul. You added it.

Tom:Fornication is on the list. I was addressing fornication.

Mike:And then you assumed if a born again believer has more than one wife he is ignorantly guilty of committing fornication, and that he, therefore, has a defective trait of character.

Tom:No, I didn't assume any of this. I stated that a believer could be practicing polygamy, which would be an example of a believer doing something which was on the list, which is what you asked me to provide.

Mike:Well, fornication is premarital sexual relations, and adultery is extra-marital sexual relations. So, technically, if a person is married to more than one spouse it isn't either one.

Tom:Are you trying to get a job as a lawyer?

Mike:Either way, it is not possible to ignorantly commit fornication or adultery. It takes a deliberate choice to have sexual relations with someone you are not legally married to.

Tom:If a person did not know one was doing something wrong, then it could be done in ignorance. You seem to be assuming that any born again person could only have sexual relations while being married to one person without being convicted that they were doing something wrong. I disagree with your assumption.

Mike:And no born again believer, who is abiding in Jesus, can commit a known sin.

Tom:Now you're talking about known sin. A known sin would not be one done in ignorance, which is what I was talking about.

Mike:Tom, please, we were discussing the SOP quote where she uses the words “rejecting the truth” and “false doctrines”. Peter uses the words “damnable heresy”. Paul uses the word “fables”. So, I’m not making “non-falsifiable” statements, or adding qualifications that change the meaning of previous posts. Such things are called “synonyms”, and I use them to clarify the point, not to change the meaning.

Here’s the quote again:

quote: GC 583
In rejecting the truth, men reject its Author. In trampling upon the law of God, they deny the authority of the Law-giver. It is as easy to make an idol of false doctrines and theories as to fashion an idol of wood or stone. By misrepresenting the attributes of God, Satan leads men to conceive of Him in a false character. With many, a philosophical idol is enthroned in the place of Jehovah; while the living God, as He is revealed in His word, in Christ, and in the works of creation, is worshiped by but few. Thousands deify nature while they deny the God of nature. Though in a different form, idolatry exists in the Christian world today as verily as it existed among ancient Israel in the days of Elijah. The god of many professedly wise men, of philosophers, poets, politicians, journalists--the god of polished fashionable circles, of many colleges and universities, even of some theological institutions--is little better than Baal, the sun-god of Phoenicia. {GC 583.1}

You cited this quote to prove that born again believers can ignorantly make an idol out of false doctrine, which is damnable heresy, without realizing it is morally wrong. You did this to prove that it is possible for a born again believer to develop and/or possess one of the character defects Paul listed in Galatians without realizing it is morally wrong. I don’t see how you can quote this passage to prove your point. The insights in this quote do not support the conclusions you derive from it.

Tom:Yes they do. I've pointed this out several times, but you are either ignoring it or haven't noticed. The quote says that it is as easy to make idols out of false ideas as it is to fashion them out of wood or stone. That means it's a very easy thing to do. A person can easily have a wrong idea, even a "damnable heresy" and be in a saved condition. I'll give you a specific example.

Take the doctrine of eternal hell. Ellen White speaks of this as a "damnable heresy" to use you rule of synomyns. Yet there are many Christians, most in fact, who are in a saved condition, yet hold to this false doctrine.

Mike:Also, I didn’t change the subject. The topic of this thread is “hidden character defects”. Character is the result of choice, not chance. It requires habitual, repetitious actions, whether in thought, word, or deed. To develop sinful traits of character a person must wilfully, knowingly, deliberately choose to violate his or her conscience and convictions.

A defective trait of character is not the result of doing something you believe is right, even if it is wrong. For example, if you honestly and truly believe it is God’s will for you to have more than one spouse, and you believe you are obeying the word and voice of God, then, in the eyes of God, you are not guilty of fornication or adultery, or any other sin. Nor is it considered a hidden character defect.

Tom:This is the non-falsiable thing again.

Tom, no born again believer can be guilty of fornication without realizing it is wrong. Period. Your polygamy example does not prove it is possible to develop and/or possess a sinful trait of character related to fornication and still be in a saved state. A polygamist is legally married and is not guilty of fornication. Paul clearly says that anybody guilty of any one of the sinful traits he listed will not inherit the kingdom of God. No amount of twisting or wrangling can undo or undermine what he wrote.

quote:

---

You seem to be assuming that any born again person could only have sexual relations while being married to one person without being convicted that they were doing something wrong. I disagree with your assumption.

---

In what way is being married to one person wrong? Why would God convict them of wrongdoing if they are monogamous?

quote:

---

Yes they do. I've pointed this out several times, but you are either ignoring it or haven't noticed. The quote says that it is as easy to make idols out of false ideas as it is to fashion them out of wood or stone. That means it's a very easy thing to do. A person can easily have a wrong idea, even a "damnable heresy" and be in a saved condition. I'll give you a specific example.

---

No, Tom, that’s not what the she meant. She’s condemning idolizing the false doctrine, not ignorantly believing it. You are mixing meanings here. Nobody can make an idol out of anything, right or wrong, and be in a saved state. Innocently and honestly believing in "hell" isn't a defective trait of character.

quote:

---

Mike: Also, I didn’t change the subject. The topic of this thread is “hidden character defects”. Character is the result of choice, not chance. It requires habitual, repetitious actions, whether in thought, word, or deed. To develop sinful traits of character a person must wilfully, knowingly, deliberately choose to violate his or her conscience and convictions.

A defective trait of character is not the result of doing something you believe is right, even if it is wrong. For example, if you honestly and truly believe it is God’s will for you to have more than one spouse, and you believe you are obeying the word and voice of God, then, in the eyes of God, you are not guilty of fornication or adultery, or any other sin. Nor is it considered a hidden character defect.

Tom:This is the non-falsiable thing again.

---

You’ll need to do better than that, Tom. Please address the point. Thank you.

Does the sentence "Period" add anything to an argument? E.g.

quote:

---

Tom, no born again believer can be guilty of fornication without realizing it is wrong. Period.

---

I'm not sure how to go about counteracting the "Period". Maybe "Exclamation point!".

Mike, a born again believer can be guilty of fornication without realizing it is wrong. Exclamation point!

You seem to want to use this definition for fornication:

"voluntary sexual intercourse between persons not married to each other"

I don't think this is the Biblical defnition, as I believe polygamy would be covered under the Biblical definition, but let's go with yours. Under your theory, it would be impossible for a person to be born again without realizing it's a sin to have sexual relations with someone to whom they are not married. I think that's a unreasonable presumption. There are many people who have to be educated about things like this. There are many who feel that if they are in a monogomous committed relationship, they did not need to have that sanctioned by a piece of paper. Just because they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior doesn't all of a sudden make them omniscient. People need to learn these things.

Regarding the idols quote, please notice she says it is as easy to make idols out of false ideas as it is to fashion them out of wood or stone. That means it's a very easy thing to do.

Also I gave you a specific example. Most Christians hold to the false idea that God will torture the wicked. This is a "damnable heresy". Yet they are not lost. Only if one knows what is wrong and rejects the truth does one enter into rebellion against God.

OK, here's another item on the list, "heresies". That's even better than idolatry, since one need not idolize the false idea to have it and be on the list. Simply having the heresy suffices. So my example of believing in eternal hell serves even better here. Millions of Christians hold to heresies, yet they are not lost, provided they do so in ignorance. Since one can ignorantly hold to a heresy, one can possess an item in ignorance which is on Paul's list.

QED

Old Tom:You’ll need to do better than that, Tom. Please address the point. Thank you.

Mike:Please refer to my last post. Thank you.

Tom:Addressing the non-falsability of your methodology *is* addressing the point.

Old Tom: There are many who feel that if they are in a monogomous committed relationship, they did not need to have that sanctioned by a piece of paper.

Mike:If they believe they are married in the eyes of God then it isn’t fornication.

Tom:Here's exactly a case in point. Here you are redefining the word "fornication" and sin in general. Fornication can be practiced in ignorance, just like most any other sin. The fact that one ignorantly believes something which is not true does not change the truth. Fornication is fornication, regardless of what one believes.

If one believes one is married, but is not, the fact that one believes oneself to be married does not change the fact of one's marrital status; nor does it transform fornication into a non sinful act.

Mike:Paul was talking about actual, bona fide fornication, a sinful disregard of the law of God - not all these exceptions you keep coming up with.

Tom:If you have sex with someone who is not your spouse, the *is* bona-fide fornication.

Mike:No one is in saved state if they wilfully violate their conscience or convictions, or if they are deliberately guilty of developing and/or possessing one of the sinful traits Paul named.

Tom:I wasn't addressing this issue. I was merely showing that an item on Paul's list could be performed ignorantly, which I have shown. Your redefining words to agree with your beliefs doesn't change the fact that it is possible to commit an act on Paul's list in ignorance.

Mike:Paul wrote, “Of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Do you agree with him?

Tom:I agree with Paul. I disagree with you.

Old Tom: Since one can ignorantly hold to a heresy, one can possess an item in ignorance which is on Paul's list.

Mike:Paul isn’t talking about a born again believer innocently believing in a false doctrine.

Tom:I didn't claim he was. I claimed one could commit an act on Paul's list in ignorance.

Mike: He’s talking about being a heretic, which is someone who wilfully rejects the truth in favor of a lie, usually because the truth disallows a cherished sin. The following passage elaborates on this point:

2 Thessalonians
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Tom:This is not relevant to the point I was making, which was that one could commit an act on Paul's list in ignorance.

Mike:Tom, I must confess. I have never known you to fight so hard to contradict the Bible. Why? Paul plainly says no one can be guilty of the things he listed and be saved. Why do you disagree?

Tom:I don't disagree with Paul. I disagree with you. You are not Paul.

Never mind! So long as you believe it is possible to develop and/or possess one of the sinful traits Paul listed in Galatians, and enter into the kingdom of God, then there is nothing more to discuss.

It's up to you Mike, but if you wished, we could discuss something I actually believed and wrote. Just a thought.