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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13804
10/12/05 02:25 AM
10/12/05 02:25 AM
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OP
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Southwest USA
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quote:
What I was asking if we know from birth that monogamy is moral. It seems to me that your answer to this question is no, we don't know this from birth.
Correct. But we do know, from birth, that adultery is morally wrong. Polygamy is not considered immoral, in the eyes of God, if one does not know better. Immorality is the result of deliberately violating ones moral conscience and convictions, which we inherit at birth.
quote:
One is judged according to what one knows, but ignorance does not turn an immoral act into a moral one.
Because we are born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong, as defined by the last six commandments, no one can innocently or ignorantly be immoral. It’s not a moving target. We are judged by what we know and whether or not we walk accordingly. That’s what Paul meant in Rom 2:13-15. Gentiles will be saved by the blood of Jesus and because they did not violate their conscience and convictions. It’s the same standard of righteousness.
quote:
I agree with you that morality is defined by the law.
Fine. If you don’t like my use of the word “accommodate”, then forget I ever used it. But don't try and make it seem like I'm contradicting myself or the truth. You know better.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13805
10/12/05 03:48 AM
10/12/05 03:48 AM
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Correct. But we do know, from birth, that adultery is morally wrong. Polygamy is not considered immoral, in the eyes of God, if one does not know better. Immorality is the result of deliberately violating ones moral conscience and convictions, which we inherit at birth.
How can you speak for all of humanity? I don't understand this. How do you know what things a person in China knows from birth? How do you decide what's immoral and what isn't? What's your criteria? You can't just say the last 6 commandments because they mean different things for different people. I doubt any two people would interpret "covet" exactly the same way. And what about the first 4? Why do they get a free pass? Why doesn't a person know instinctively that worshipping idols is wrong?
Because we are born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong, as defined by the last six commandments, no one can innocently or ignorantly be immoral. It’s not a moving target. We are judged by what we know and whether or not we walk accordingly. That’s what Paul meant in Rom 2:13-15. Gentiles will be saved by the blood of Jesus and because they did not violate their conscience and convictions. It’s the same standard of righteousness.
I disagree that the fact that those who do not have the law have consciences means they were born with them. Why couldn't they have developed them? That seems to me far more likely. Consider Romans 1:18 and following, which points out that the truth about God is known because God has shown it to them. There's nothing in inspiration anywhere that I'm aware of that states that we are born with our consciences and convictions already formed. In fact, I would ask you for one example of a conviction that one has at birth. Human beings don't even know how to swim from birth.
I agree with you that morality is defined by the law.
Fine. If you don’t like my use of the word “accommodate”, then forget I ever used it. But don't try and make it seem like I'm contradicting myself or the truth. You know better.
I don't know why you're upset. You did contradict yourself; at least it sure seems like it to me. I'm not "acting". I pointed out the source of what was confusing me.
It looked to me like you were misusing the word "accomoate" and I asked for clarification. You clarified that the law "makes allowance" for morlity, which is indeed what accomate means. So this makes it seem like you really wanted to say "accomodate". But now you're upset at me for taking issue with your use of the word. So now I'm more confused than before.
Did you relly mean to say that the law "accomodates" morality; that is "makes allowance" for it? If so, then please explain how. If not, then please explain what you meant to say.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13806
10/12/05 01:56 PM
10/12/05 01:56 PM
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OP
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Tom, I believe Rom 2:13-15 teaches people have a natural knowledge of what is morally right and wrong which harmonizes with the last six commandments. You do not agree.
An example? How about Rom 2:13-15. What about the feral children? What about the fact basic morals are the same all over the world? Sure there are variations of the same morals, but there is a commonality.
The word "acommodate" accomodates what I was trying to say quite nicely - except in your mind. So, please, disregard it, and move on. I get tired of your word games. You know exactly what I mean. The law defines morality.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13807
10/12/05 06:50 PM
10/12/05 06:50 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Tom, I believe Rom 2:13-15 teaches people have a natural knowledge of what is morally right and wrong which harmonizes with the last six commandments. You do not agree.
In Romans 1 it says that people know the truth because God has told them. John 1:9 also says the same thing in saying that Christ is the true light that lightens everyone who comes into the world. So while I'm sure there is a hard-wiring of morality into humanity to some extent, the specifics as to how this is implemented in one's life is almost completely learned, IMO.
An example? How about Rom 2:13-15.
This is a poor example, because this is the passage under dispute.
What about the feral children?
This is a better example. I wasn't able to find the exactly thing you were referring to. This was very interesting.
What about the fact basic morals are the same all over the world? Sure there are variations of the same morals, but there is a commonality.
This is a good example. However an equally plausible explanation to the fact that there is a comonality of morality throughtout the world is that the same God is communicating truth to all peoples. The fact that there is commonality of morals does not necessarily argue that these morals are known instinctually rather then learned.
The word "acommodate" accomodates what I was trying to say quite nicely - except in your mind.
How so? You are implying there is something unique about my understanding of the word "accomodate", but I just referred to the dictionary definition. It appears to me that the word "accomodate" does not accomodate what you were trying to say, except in your mind.
So, please, disregard it, and move on. I get tired of your word games. You know exactly what I mean. The law defines morality.
I'm just asking for clarification. I don't know why you are making this personal. I STILL don't know what you mean, even though you claim I know exactly what you mean. I DON'T.
When I asked for clarification of "accomodate" you suggested "make allowance for," which is a fine definition. So let's throw away "accomoodate" and use "make allowance for". Make allowance for what? What is it you are trying to say?
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13808
10/13/05 01:48 PM
10/13/05 01:48 PM
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Tom, one more time, please forget I eve used the word "accommodate". Thank you. You know I believe the law defines morality. That's what I mean. Nothin more, nothing less.
I'm glad we agree that humans have some degree of instinctive knowledge of morality as defined by the law. Since we were originally made in the image and likeness of God morality is latent, in greater or lesser degree, within all of us.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13809
10/14/05 02:05 AM
10/14/05 02:05 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Since we were originally made in the image and likeness of God morality is latent, in greater or lesser degree, within all of us.
I agree with this.
I disagree with the idea that there is nothing moral that we learn, which is what you position is, correct? (I'm basing this on your assertion that we know all moral things instinctively at birth).
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13810
10/15/05 02:14 AM
10/15/05 02:14 AM
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Yes, there are details regarding biblical morality that we can learn, and must learn if we hope to be translated alive when Jesus returns. But everyone is born with a basic, instinctive knowlegde of what is morally right and wrong, as defined by the last six commandments, which is why I believe no born again believer can be ignorant of their moral imperfections, as defined by the ten commandments (except, of course, the sabbath commandment, in certain cases).
Back to the original question - What is a hidden character defect? Again, I believe it is uncultivated inherited traits of character (not character) that lie dormant within us, traits that come to the surface when God takes us through experiences that bring them to our attention. We are not guilty of them, they do not represent unknown cultivated sinful traits of character, traits that we ignorantly developed over time by making habitual choices. They are nothing more than uncultivated inherited traits of character.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13811
10/15/05 04:03 AM
10/15/05 04:03 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
But everyone is born with a basic, instinctive knowlegde of what is morally right and wrong, as defined by the last six commandments, which is why I believe no born again believer can be ignorant of their moral imperfections, as defined by the ten commandments (except, of course, the sabbath commandment, in certain cases).
I agree there is some basic morality which is "hard-wired" into us, but believe much of our morality is learned, some being taught to us directly by God through nature and the Holy Spirit, and some through our parents, friends and other acquaintences. If I were going to guess, I would say the largest influence is by our parents, then other people, then God, and finally least important would be the hard-wired part. It seems you are saying the only important part is the hard-wired part; that we don't learn ANY morality. I find this to be a fantastic claim, and totally out of line with both inspiration and scientific discoveries. There is certainly arguments in the nature/nurture question (i.e. to what extent are things genetic and to what extent environmental) but I know of no one who suggests that anything is 100% genetic. This would make men basically like animals, it would seem to me, and destined to play out whatever their genetics destine them to. Well, this fits in logically with the Calvinistic perspective you hold, so perhaps there's some tie here. It's a very different perspective than what I hold, and as I've pointed out, one which seems to me to be very out of harmony with both inspiration and observed behavior.
I've asked for any evidence you might have from inspiration, and I think you've only suggested Romans 2, around vs. 13 to 15. However, these verses should be read in the context of Romans 1, which immediately preceeds it, and points out that all are without excuse because of the things God has shown them.
I apologize in advance if I have misunderstood or mischarterized your views. If so, please point out where I've misunderstood.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13812
10/16/05 02:09 AM
10/16/05 02:09 AM
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OP
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Yes, Tom, there is one point you left out: quote:
Yes, there are details regarding biblical morality that we can learn, and must learn, if we hope to be translated alive when Jesus returns.
Also, Romans 1 is talking about reprobate Jews, not Gentiles.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13813
10/16/05 01:56 AM
10/16/05 01:56 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I noticed the statement about translation, but I didn't really changed anything in terms of our discussion. I've never heard the suggestion that Romans 1 is talking about reprobate Jews. Here a comment from the first Commentary I consulted: quote:
Not only by the declarations of the Holy Scriptures, and his judgments, but by nature's teachings, and by the human conscience. Ungodliness. Irreligiousness. This is the fountain of unrighteousness. Hold the truth in unrighteousness. There is a measure of truth revealed to every man.
Here's from the second one:
quote:
Here he begins to show why God's wrath is manifest. They are inexcusable because "that which may be known of God is manifest in them." The next verse shows what may be known of God by all.
Here's from the third one:
quote:
For what is to be known of God - Those great principles which are indispensably necessary to be known. Is manifest in them; for God hath showed it to them - By the light which enlightens every man that cometh into the world.
(There are all from Crosswalk.com, online study helps.)
Paul's argument is that all are guilty, whether Jew or Gentile. The principles laid out in Romans 1 are not limited to Jews. If they were limited to anyone, it would be Gentiles, because the Jews had the Scriptures. Paul is making the point that even the Gentiles are without excuse, because God has manifest the truth to them. John communicates the same thought in John 1:9 that Christ is the true light that lightens every man who comes into the world.
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