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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: asygo] #138016
12/09/11 12:45 AM
12/09/11 12:45 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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It was Rom. 3:23. Perhaps you've heard it from the NIV so often that you didn't realize you were quoting the NIV and not the KJV.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #138017
12/09/11 12:48 AM
12/09/11 12:48 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
1. Disobey and die = OC.
2. Disobey and live = NC.

Are you sure?

I'm sure that's not it.

1. Disobey and die immediately and forever = OC.
2. Disobey and live for a time of probation = NC.

This should be basic Adventism. Are you disagreeing with this?

Quote:
By rebellion and apostasy man forfeited the favor of God; not his rights, for he could have no value except as it was invested in God's dear Son. This point must be understood. He forfeited those privileges which God in His mercy presented him as a free gift, a treasure in trust to be used to advance His cause and His glory, to benefit the beings He had made. The moment the workmanship of God refused obedience to the laws of God's kingdom, that moment he became disloyal to the government of God and he made himself entirely unworthy of all the blessings wherewith God had favored him. {FW 21.1}

This was the position of the human race after man divorced himself from God by transgression. Then he was no longer entitled to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine, or a particle of food. And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. Christ proposed to become man's surety and substitute, that man, through matchless grace, should have another trial--a second probation--having the experience of Adam and Eve as a warning not to transgress God's law as they did. And inasmuch as man enjoys the blessings of God in the gift of the sunshine and the gift of food, there must be on the part of man a bowing before God in thankful acknowledgment that all things come of God. Whatever is rendered back to Him is only His own who has given it. {FW 21.2}

Man broke God's law, and through the Redeemer new and fresh promises were made on a different basis. All blessings must come through a Mediator. Now every member of the human family is given wholly into the hands of Christ, and whatever we possess--whether it is the gift of money, of houses, of lands, of reasoning powers, of physical strength, of intellectual talents--in this present life, and the blessings of the future life, are placed in our possession as God's treasures to be faithfully expended for the benefit of man. Every gift is stamped with the cross and bears the image and superscription of Jesus Christ. All things come of God. From the smallest benefits up to the largest blessing, all flow through the one Channel--a superhuman mediation sprinkled with the blood that is of value beyond estimate because it was the life of God in His Son. {FW 22.1}

Now not a soul can give God anything that is not already His. Bear this in mind: "All things come of Thee, and of Thine own have we given Thee" (1 Chronicles 29:14). This must be kept before the people wherever we go--that we possess nothing, can offer nothing in value, in work, in faith, which we have not first received of God and upon which He can lay His hand any time and say, They are Mine--gifts and blessings and endowments I entrusted to you, not to enrich yourself, but for wise improvement to benefit the world. {FW 22.2}

Not only does this summarize the NC, but it reminds us how preposterous it is to even consider that we can earn brownie points with God by simply returning to Him what He gave us in the first place, but with the unsavory addition of our corruption.

Last edited by asygo; 12/09/11 12:48 AM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: asygo] #138018
12/09/11 12:52 AM
12/09/11 12:52 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Arnold,

In some situations, verb tense is everything. This is one of those. We've got to keep a close eye on those tenses, or the covenants will be misrepresented and misunderstood. smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: Green Cochoa] #138019
12/09/11 12:56 AM
12/09/11 12:56 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
It was Rom. 3:23. Perhaps you've heard it from the NIV so often that you didn't realize you were quoting the NIV and not the KJV.

No, that was from the NKJV, which I have read and heard many times. It's a coincidence that the NIV uses similar words.

In any case, I don't know that there's a problem between come and fall. Perhaps we can discuss this in Why the King James Version is Superior....


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: Green Cochoa] #138020
12/09/11 12:58 AM
12/09/11 12:58 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
In some situations, verb tense is everything. This is one of those. We've got to keep a close eye on those tenses, or the covenants will be misrepresented and misunderstood. smile

Certainly we want to avoid misunderstandings, especially in such an important topic. Please elaborate.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: asygo] #138021
12/09/11 01:15 AM
12/09/11 01:15 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Arnold,

Your new covenant theology seems a little edgy to me with its handling of the sin/confession/repentance cycle. You've made some good points. However, quoting one of the newer translations which says we must continue to fall implies that we can never truly be free of sin. I do not accept such a translation, nor philosophy. I believe it contradicts the messages we find elsewhere in the Bible and in Ellen White's writings.

Keep the sinning as past tense. There is no need for us to remain slaves to sin. We can be free!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: Green Cochoa] #138022
12/09/11 04:48 AM
12/09/11 04:48 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
GC,

The KJV also renders Rom 3:23 in the present tense. It does not say that all sinned and used to come short of the glory of God. I have never seen that verse translated in the past tense.

The NC requires faith in Christ's atoning blood at the start, end, and every moment in between. There is never a point where we say, "Thanks, Jesus, but I can handle it from here on out. I don't need your covering anymore."

Plus, the NC is not a sin/confession/repentance cycle. Yes, there is sin/confession/repentance, but repentance always comes with reformation. However, we are to maintain a spirit of repentance, contrition, etc. Even our best works need Christ's blood to make them acceptable to God.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: Green Cochoa] #138023
12/09/11 04:52 AM
12/09/11 04:52 AM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
However, quoting one of the newer translations which says we must continue to fall implies that we can never truly be free of sin.

We don't continue to fall, but we continue to be fallen sinners. If we die with Christ, we are freed from sin, not free of sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Reply Quote
Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: asygo] #138024
12/09/11 05:02 AM
12/09/11 05:02 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: asygo
GC,

The KJV also renders Rom 3:23 in the present tense. It does not say that all sinned and used to come short of the glory of God. I have never seen that verse translated in the past tense.

The NC requires faith in Christ's atoning blood at the start, end, and every moment in between. There is never a point where we say, "Thanks, Jesus, but I can handle it from here on out. I don't need your covering anymore."

Plus, the NC is not a sin/confession/repentance cycle. Yes, there is sin/confession/repentance, but repentance always comes with reformation. However, we are to maintain a spirit of repentance, contrition, etc. Even our best works need Christ's blood to make them acceptable to God.

Arnold,

The English translation that appears in the KJV can be interpreted one of two ways:

1) compound past tense verb, i.e. (have sinned and have come short)
2) separate past tense and present tense verbs: (have sinned, past) and (come short, present)

However, what exactly does "come short" mean? Does it mean "sin?" I submit that this is not necessarily the case. After all, will we ever equal God's glory? We never will. Yet we will be sinless. Even the angels may come short of the Glory of God.

In other words, neither of the two possible interpretations of the KJV wording forces a present tense sin or sinning.

Now, look at the NIV/NKJV wording. Only one word has changed. But it makes all the difference in the world.

The "have sinned" still is in past tense, and "fall" is now decisively in the present tense, not being a possible part of a compound verb. However, "fall" implies a clear direction of travel from a higher state to a lower one, ergo "sin."

So it is essentially stating that one must continue to sin, present tense, with no hope of changing this side of translation to Heaven. This also means that Jesus gave an impossible command in "be ye therefore perfect."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: asygo] #138027
12/09/11 05:08 AM
12/09/11 05:08 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
However, quoting one of the newer translations which says we must continue to fall implies that we can never truly be free of sin.

We don't continue to fall, but we continue to be fallen sinners. If we die with Christ, we are freed from sin, not free of sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


Again, the verb tense difference between "fall" and "fallen" makes all the difference, doesn't it?

Regarding being "freed from sin, not free of sin," I say that is an oxymoron. If God is not powerful enough to help us stop sinning, there is no hope for us. If Jesus has to simply do it for us because we cannot possibly be led or aided by Him to do right ourselves, why am I still a Christian? Honestly, Arnold, if I believed what you imply here, I would have given up long ago. I refuse to believe God is so impotent as to be unable to help me be free of every taint of sin, not just escape sin's consequences through the vicarious perfection of Christ.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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