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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#138098
12/13/11 12:38 AM
12/13/11 12:38 AM
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If he was never under the OC how, then, did he break it? ". . . only a few weeks passed before they broke their covenant with God, and bowed down to worship a graven image." If breaking the OC resulted in immediate death why, then, didn't he die? The old covenant was made with the israelites - all of them. But it couldn't provide salvation - there was no Savior promised in it. When the OC led someone to realize that he had sinned and was under a curse, was lost, that person had to go back to the Savior promised in the abrahamic covenant. The two covenants ran side by side. Ellen applied the two passages you cited above to the OC. No, I don't believe she did it. The Bible is clear that there were two covenants, and EGW is clear that one of them is still in force. Surely you don't believe that the OC is still in force, do you? Where in the Bible does God switch from the OC to the NC, that is, where does it say He entered into NC relations with post-exilic Israel? ? The NC predates the OC. The NC has always been in force since the entrance of sin, and there is salvation only under the NC. Everybody who felt the need of a Savior and accepted Him by faith was under the NC. Why did Jeremiah speak of the NC happening in future? Jeremiah is speaking about the days of the Messiah, when God's people would understand as never before the terms of the NC and would come under it.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: asygo]
#138107
12/13/11 04:02 PM
12/13/11 04:02 PM
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M: If breaking the OC resulted in immediate death why, then, didn't he die? ... Where in the Bible does God switch from the OC to the NC, that is, where does it say He entered into NC relations with post-exilic Israel?
A: If the OC were to be fully implemented, then Adam and Eve would have perished immediately. But in His mercy, God has given all of us another chance, even from the foundation of the world. See Revelation 13:8. Whether or not we know it, we have received at least some of the blessings of the NC. A substitute was found, giving us another probation.
But some sinners do not have a true concept of God's requirements, and their utter inability to fulfill them. So they still try to enter into the OC, thinking their good works will earn them something other than death. But God, like a good parent, often gives us what we need, not what we want. Are you suggesting A&E broke the OC when they ate the forbidden fruit? Are you suggesting God still enters into OC terms and conditions with sinners nowadays? When are born-again believers guilty of sinning under the OC and when are they guilty of sinning under the NC? Please provide examples and explain how they differ. Thank you.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#138143
12/15/11 03:25 PM
12/15/11 03:25 PM
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God's favor toward Israel had always been conditional on their obedience. At the foot of Sinai they had entered into covenant relationship with Him as His "peculiar treasure. . . above all people." Solemnly they had promised to follow in the path of obedience. "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do," they had said. Exodus 19:5, 8. And when, a few days afterward, God's law was spoken from Sinai, and additional instruction in the form of statutes and judgments was communicated through Moses, the Israelites with one voice had again promised, "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do." At the ratification of the covenant, the people had once more united in declaring, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient," Exodus 24:3, 7. God had chosen Israel as His people, and they had chosen Him as their King. Near the close of the wilderness wandering the conditions of the covenant had been repeated. {PK 293} Rosangela, are you suggesting the covenant named four different times in the paragraph above refers to two different and opposing covenants? Is it possible the OC was made with the nation of Israel corporately, whereas the NC is made with people personally? If so, it stands to reason both were in effect during the reign of Israel as God's chosen nation.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#138148
12/15/11 08:49 PM
12/15/11 08:49 PM
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Mike, there is no two "opposing" covenants. The terms of God's covenants are always the same:
obey -> live
disobey -> die
IOW, eternal life is gained through perfect obedience.
These were the terms of God's covenant before sin.
The problem with this covenant is that for sinners it means death.
The difference between the covenant made before sin and the covenant made after sin is that the covenant made after sin provided a Savior - a Savior who both obeyed and earned eternal life (for us), and who died for (our) disobedience.
This covenant, the covenant of grace, has always been in force after sin. Listen to what the Bible says:
Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the law (the OC), which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
God made a covenant with the israelites, but He didn't include in it the promise of a Savior. Why? Because He wished them to feel the need of a Savior:
Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law (the OC) was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Anyone who felt his need of a Savior and accepted Him by faith was automatically under the NC.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#138175
12/16/11 10:35 PM
12/16/11 10:35 PM
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Difficult questions. Did anyone die because they violated the terms and conditions of the OC? Those who violated the terms and conditions of the OC (which were none other than loving God supremely and loving one's neighbor as oneself) were condemned to death. But this does not mean they would die immediately. Eternal death will happen after the millennium. Or, was the OC annulled after the Jews worshiped the golden calf? I don't think so. The fact that God rewrote the tables of stone implies that the covenant wasn't annulled. And, was the OC a corporate contract (as opposed to a personal one)? Yes, Ex 24 implies that. Does the OC still exist today? The OC - Sinaitic Covenant - was made with Israel, specifically to be a teaching tool to them, and ceased to exist when Christ died on the cross. Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
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