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Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit [Re: Daryl] #138179
12/16/11 11:49 PM
12/16/11 11:49 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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I would say that all our righteousness based on our BEST obedience is filthy rags. The only "clean rags" are based on Christ's obedience.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit [Re: asygo] #138180
12/16/11 11:52 PM
12/16/11 11:52 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Quote:
Paul says that those who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. How do you reconcile this statement with the fact that Paul says we are saved by faith and not by works?

What's the relationship between being saved, faith, good works, and sin?
  • We are saved BY faith.
  • We are saved APART FROM good works.
  • We are saved FOR good works.
  • We are saved FROM sin.
We have to keep them all straight if we want to avoid confusion.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit [Re: asygo] #138181
12/16/11 11:56 PM
12/16/11 11:56 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Something to ponder:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.


Does "you do not do the things that you wish" apply to the truly converted believer?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit [Re: Daryl] #138194
12/17/11 04:12 PM
12/17/11 04:12 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Daryl F
Perhaps I should say that all our righteousness based on our faulty obedience are as filthy rags.

Amen! But to say as Arnold and Rosangela do that the righteous results of abiding in Jesus are also filthy rags is the big question. I disagree. To what conclusion have your Bible studies led?

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Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit [Re: asygo] #138195
12/17/11 04:18 PM
12/17/11 04:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Something to ponder:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.


Does "you do not do the things that you wish" apply to the truly converted believer?

No, absolutely not. However, from your perspective, you must say, yes. That is, from your perspective, born-again believers are incapable of experiencing "righteousness and true holiness". You believe everything they think, say, and do, while abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature, is tainted with sin and selfishness. Or, have I misunderstood your position?

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Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit [Re: asygo] #138196
12/17/11 04:42 PM
12/17/11 04:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Quote:
Paul says that those who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. How do you reconcile this statement with the fact that Paul says we are saved by faith and not by works?

What's the relationship between being saved, faith, good works, and sin?
  • We are saved BY faith.
  • We are saved APART FROM good works.
  • We are saved FOR good works.
  • We are saved FROM sin.
We have to keep them all straight if we want to avoid confusion.

I disagree. It is impossible to separate faith and good works. They always go hand-in-hand. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
I was attending a meeting, and a large congregation were present. In my dream you were presenting the subject of faith and the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith. You repeated several times that works amounted to nothing, that there were no conditions. The matter was presented in that light that I knew minds would be confused and would not receive the correct impression in reference to faith and works, and I decided to write to you. You state this matter too strongly. There are conditions to our receiving justification and sanctification, and the righteousness of Christ. I know your meaning, but you leave a wrong impression upon many minds. While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works. God saves us under a law, that we must ask if we would receive, seek if we would find, and knock if we would have the door opened unto us. {FW 111.1}

While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. The law is the standard by which character is measured. But we cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law. {FW 95.3}

He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. Man cannot be saved without obedience, but his works should not be of himself; Christ should work in him to will and to do of His good pleasure. If a man could save himself by his own works, he might have something in himself in which to rejoice. The effort that man makes in his own strength to obtain salvation is represented by the offering of Cain. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin; but that which is wrought through faith is acceptable to God. When we seek to gain heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress. "Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith," we may go on from strength to strength, from victory to victory; for through Christ the grace of God has worked out our complete salvation. {FW 94.1}

Faith and works go together, believing and doing are blended. The Lord requires no less of the soul now, than He required of Adam in Paradise before he fell-- perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement of God under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement He made in Paradise--harmony with His law, which is holy, and just, and good. The gospel does not weaken the claims of the law; it exalts the law and makes it honorable. Under the New Testament, no less is required than was required under the Old Testament. Let no one take up with the delusion so pleasant to the natural heart, that God will accept of sincerity, no matter what may be the faith, no matter how imperfect may be the life. God requires of His child perfect obedience. {1SM 373.1}

They profess faith, but it is not a living faith because it is not sustained by works. Faith without works is dead, being alone. Those who profess great faith, yet have not works, will not be saved by their faith. Satan believes the truth and trembles, yet this kind of faith possesses no virtue. Many who have made a high profession of faith are deficient in good works. If they should show their faith by their works they could exert a powerful influence on the side of truth. {2T 657.2}

Although we cannot work our to heaven we can and must allow heaven to work its way in us; otherwise the gates of heaven will be barred against us. And, in light of what Arnold and Rosangela believe, the sin-stained fruits of the Spirit they speak of do not qualify as "righteousness and true holiness". Nor can Jesus make them acceptable by covering them with His robe of righteousness. Jesus never has, and never will, sweeten sin with the fragrance of His blood and righteousness.

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Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit [Re: Mountain Man] #138232
12/18/11 11:21 PM
12/18/11 11:21 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
Quote:
Paul says that those who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. How do you reconcile this statement with the fact that Paul says we are saved by faith and not by works?

What's the relationship between being saved, faith, good works, and sin?
  • We are saved BY faith.
  • We are saved APART FROM good works.
  • We are saved FOR good works.
  • We are saved FROM sin.
We have to keep them all straight if we want to avoid confusion.

I disagree. It is impossible to separate faith and good works. They always go hand-in-hand.

I never said otherwise.

Perhaps you can elaborate on what you're disagreeing with by quoting exactly what I said that you believe to be error.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit [Re: asygo] #138246
12/19/11 04:06 PM
12/19/11 04:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
I never said otherwise. Perhaps you can elaborate on what you're disagreeing with by quoting exactly what I said that you believe to be error.

We are not "saved apart from good works." We are saved in and with "righteousness and true holiness."

You do not appear to believe people are "saved from sin." You adamantly declare people are born again defective and everything they think, say, and do is tainted with sin and selfishness.

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Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit [Re: Mountain Man] #138252
12/19/11 09:04 PM
12/19/11 09:04 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
We are not "saved apart from good works." We are saved in and with "righteousness and true holiness."

Our salvation is not derived from our works, no matter how good they may be.

Romans 4:6
just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #12 (4th Quarter 2011): Living by the Spirit [Re: asygo] #138263
12/20/11 03:16 PM
12/20/11 03:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: We are not "saved apart from good works." We are saved in and with "righteousness and true holiness."

A: Our salvation is not derived from our works, no matter how good they may be.

Romans 4:6
just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

I agree with the passages you posted above. However, do you see a difference between the meaning of the following two statements:

1. We are not "saved apart from good works." We are saved in and with "righteousness and true holiness."

2. Our salvation is not derived from our works, no matter how good they may be.

Quote:
M: You do not appear to believe people are "saved from sin." You adamantly declare people are born again defective and everything they think, say, and do is tainted with sin and selfishness.

Do you agree with these observations?

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