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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: Green Cochoa] #138028
12/09/11 05:11 AM
12/09/11 05:11 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Just 2 quickies for now:

1. Does the Textus Receptus give the option of a compound past perfect tense in Rom 3:23?

2. God's glory is His character, yes? Is it OK to come short of His character? Or are we called to have a character like His?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: Green Cochoa] #138029
12/09/11 05:18 AM
12/09/11 05:18 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Honestly, Arnold, if I believed what you imply here, I would have given up long ago. I refuse to believe God is so impotent as to be unable to help me be free of every taint of sin, not just escape sin's consequences through the vicarious perfection of Christ.

That made me laugh out loud.

I contrast it with my father who says that if he believed as I do, he would have given up being a Christian long ago because he can't believe in a God who is so impotent that He needs help from sinners to get the job done.

He will free you and me from every taint of sin. But it might not be according to our schedule. From the cross to the crown there is earnest work to be done, there is wrestling against inbred sin and outward wrong.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: asygo] #138030
12/09/11 05:30 AM
12/09/11 05:30 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Just 2 quickies for now:

1. Does the Textus Receptus give the option of a compound past perfect tense in Rom 3:23?

2. God's glory is His character, yes? Is it OK to come short of His character? Or are we called to have a character like His?


I don't have an answer to your #1, as I'm not a scholar in the Biblical languages.

Regarding number two, I believe God's character is a major part of His glory, but that there's more to it than just that. The Bible speaks of there being no need for the light of the sun in the New Earth because God's glory will be its light. I don't imagine us ever having a light that shines as brilliantly as God's will, do you?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: asygo] #138050
12/10/11 03:44 PM
12/10/11 03:44 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
1. Disobey and die immediately and forever = OC.
2. Disobey and live for a time of probation = NC.

This should be basic Adventism. Are you disagreeing with this?

1. Aaron disobeyed under the OC and he lived. Please explain.
2. When did the Jews switch from the OC to the NC?

Quote:
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:10-14, 23-25, 31-34.

As of the time of Jeremiah Jesus still hadn't entered into NC status with the Jews.

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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #138052
12/10/11 04:26 PM
12/10/11 04:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
He will free you and me from every taint of sin. But it might not be according to our schedule. From the cross to the crown there is earnest work to be done, there is wrestling against inbred sin and outward wrong.

When will Jesus set us free? What is He waiting for? What does inbred sin have to with it? In what way is the NC "better" if, as you say, Jesus cannot set us free now? Ellen wrote:

Quote:
The new-covenant promise is, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." {MB 50.2}

Perfection of character is attainable by every one who strives for it. This is made the very foundation of the new covenant of the gospel. The law of Jehovah is the tree; the gospel is the fragrant blossoms and fruit which it bears. {AG 141.3}

The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins and of the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law. {AG 136.4}

The blessings of the new covenant are grounded purely on mercy in forgiving unrighteousness and sins. . . . All who humble their hearts, confessing their sins, will find mercy and grace and assurance. Has God, in showing mercy to the sinner, ceased to be just? Has He dishonored His holy law, and will He henceforth pass over the violation of it? God is true. He changes not. The conditions of salvation are ever the same. Life, eternal life, is for all who will obey God's law. . . . {AG 136.5}

Under the new covenant, the conditions by which eternal life may be gained are the same as under the old--perfect obedience. . . . In the new and better covenant, Christ has fulfilled the law for the transgressors of law, if they receive Him by faith as a personal Saviour. . . . In the better covenant we are cleansed from sin by the blood of Christ. {AG 136.6}

When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience. {SC 60.2}

There is no evidence in these passages that Jesus waits to set us free. How can people whom Jesus has renewed with a new nature, a new heart, a new mind, new motives, new tastes, and new tendencies yield the sinful, sin-stained obedience and righteousness you speak of?

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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #138060
12/10/11 07:07 PM
12/10/11 07:07 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Sorry, I know the question was addressed to Arnold, but I couldn't resist it. smile
Quote:
1. Aaron disobeyed under the OC and he lived. Please explain.

He was forgiven under the abrahamic (new) covenant. There was no promise of forgiveness under the terms of the old covenant.

In the old dispensation believers were saved through the grace of Christ, as presented in the gospel, as we are saved today. The only means of salvation is provided under the Abrahamic covenant. {ST, September 5, 1892 par. 4}

Quote:
2. When did the Jews switch from the OC to the NC?

They had witnessed the proclamation of the law in awful majesty, and had trembled with terror before the mount; and yet only a few weeks passed before they broke their covenant with God, and bowed down to worship a graven image. They could not hope for the favor of God through a covenant which they had broken; and now, seeing their sinfulness and their need of pardon, they were brought to feel their need of the Saviour revealed in the Abrahamic covenant and shadowed forth in the sacrificial offerings. Now by faith and love they were bound to God as their deliverer from the bondage of sin. Now they were prepared to appreciate the blessings of the new covenant. {PP 371.4}

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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: Rosangela] #138064
12/11/11 01:02 AM
12/11/11 01:02 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
1. Aaron disobeyed under the OC and he lived. Please explain.

He was forgiven under the abrahamic (new) covenant. There was no promise of forgiveness under the terms of the old covenant. "In the old dispensation believers were saved through the grace of Christ, as presented in the gospel, as we are saved today. The only means of salvation is provided under the Abrahamic covenant. {ST, September 5, 1892 par. 4}

Was Aaron ever under the terms and conditions of the OC?

Also, if being under the OC is negative, why, then, did Ellen speak of it in positive terms? "The covenant that God made with His people at Sinai is to be our refuge and defense. . . This covenant is of just as much force today as it was when the Lord made it with ancient Israel. . . 'All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.' This is the pledge that God's people are to make in these last days."

Quote:
2. When did the Jews switch from the OC to the NC?

"They had witnessed the proclamation of the law in awful majesty, and had trembled with terror before the mount; and yet only a few weeks passed before they broke their covenant with God, and bowed down to worship a graven image. They could not hope for the favor of God through a covenant which they had broken; and now, seeing their sinfulness and their need of pardon, they were brought to feel their need of the Saviour revealed in the Abrahamic covenant and shadowed forth in the sacrificial offerings. Now by faith and love they were bound to God as their deliverer from the bondage of sin. Now they were prepared to appreciate the blessings of the new covenant. {PP 371.4}

Was appreciating the "blessings of the new covenant" the same thing as switching from the OC to the NC? If so, why did Jeremiah speak of it happening in future?

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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #138069
12/11/11 03:40 PM
12/11/11 03:40 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Was Aaron ever under the terms and conditions of the OC?

The OC was only a teaching tool to lead to the NC. To be under the terms of the OC was death; the OC was "the ministration of death" (2 Cor. 3:7).

Quote:
Also, if being under the OC is negative, why, then, did Ellen speak of it in positive terms? "The covenant that God made with His people at Sinai is to be our refuge and defense. . . This covenant is of just as much force today as it was when the Lord made it with ancient Israel. . . 'All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.' This is the pledge that God's people are to make in these last days."

The question is, Was there only one covenant at Sinai? Read Ex 19:3-8 and Ex 24:2-8.

Quote:
Was appreciating the "blessings of the new covenant" the same thing as switching from the OC to the NC? If so, why did Jeremiah speak of it happening in future?

Yes, it was the same as switching from the OC to the NC. The NC would be ratified in the future, by Christ's blood, but it existed since the fall (Gn 3:15), and it was renewed with Abraham (Gn 12:3). It is the Abrahamic covenant - the covenant of grace by faith. "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gl 3:29).

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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: Rosangela] #138079
12/12/11 03:41 PM
12/12/11 03:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: Was Aaron ever under the terms and conditions of the OC?

R: The OC was only a teaching tool to lead to the NC. To be under the terms of the OC was death; the OC was "the ministration of death" (2 Cor. 3:7).

If he was never under the OC how, then, did he break it? ". . . only a few weeks passed before they broke their covenant with God, and bowed down to worship a graven image." If breaking the OC resulted in immediate death why, then, didn't he die?

Quote:
M: Also, if being under the OC is negative, why, then, did Ellen speak of it in positive terms? "The covenant that God made with His people at Sinai is to be our refuge and defense. . . This covenant is of just as much force today as it was when the Lord made it with ancient Israel. . . 'All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.' This is the pledge that God's people are to make in these last days."

R: The question is, Was there only one covenant at Sinai? Read Ex 19:3-8 and Ex 24:2-8.

Ellen applied the two passages you cited above to the OC. She wrote:

Quote:
God brought them to Sinai; He manifested His glory; He gave them His law, with the promise of great blessings on condition of obedience: "If ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then . . . ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." Exodus 19:5, 6. The people did not realize the sinfulness of their own hearts, and that without Christ it was impossible for them to keep God's law; and they readily entered into covenant with God. Feeling that they were able to establish their own righteousness, they declared, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient." Exodus 24:7. They had witnessed the proclamation of the law in awful majesty, and had trembled with terror before the mount; and yet only a few weeks passed before they broke their covenant with God, and bowed down to worship a graven image. They could not hope for the favor of God through a covenant which they had broken; and now, seeing their sinfulness and their need of pardon, they were brought to feel their need of the Saviour revealed in the Abrahamic covenant and shadowed forth in the sacrificial offerings. Now by faith and love they were bound to God as their deliverer from the bondage of sin. Now they were prepared to appreciate the blessings of the new covenant. {PP 371.4}

Where in the Bible does God switch from the OC to the NC, that is, where does it say He entered into NC relations with post-exilic Israel?

Quote:
M: Was appreciating the "blessings of the new covenant" the same thing as switching from the OC to the NC? If so, why did Jeremiah speak of it happening in future?

R: Yes, it was the same as switching from the OC to the NC. The NC would be ratified in the future, by Christ's blood, but it existed since the fall (Gn 3:15), and it was renewed with Abraham (Gn 12:3). It is the Abrahamic covenant - the covenant of grace by faith. "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gl 3:29).

Why did Jeremiah speak of the NC happening in future?

Quote:
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:10-14, 23-25, 31-34.

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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #138087
12/12/11 04:16 PM
12/12/11 04:16 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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I know that these are addressed to Rosangela, but I have time for a quickie. (Plus, we're usually on the same page anyway, especially on this topic, so I think it will be OK. smile )

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
If breaking the OC resulted in immediate death why, then, didn't he die?
...
Where in the Bible does God switch from the OC to the NC, that is, where does it say He entered into NC relations with post-exilic Israel?

If the OC were to be fully implemented, then Adam and Eve would have perished immediately. But in His mercy, God has given all of us another chance, even from the foundation of the world. See Revelation 13:8. Whether or not we know it, we have received at least some of the blessings of the NC. A substitute was found, giving us another probation.

But some sinners do not have a true concept of God's requirements, and their utter inability to fulfill them. So they still try to enter into the OC, thinking their good works will earn them something other than death. But God, like a good parent, often gives us what we need, not what we want.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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