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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Rosangela]
#138177
12/16/11 11:41 PM
12/16/11 11:41 PM
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Did anyone die because they violated the terms and conditions of the OC? Those who violated the terms and conditions of the OC (which were none other than loving God supremely and loving one's neighbor as oneself) were condemned to death. But this does not mean they would die immediately. Eternal death will happen after the millennium. How about this: All who will not receive eternal life will eternally die under the OC. The NC is God writing His law in sinners, converting them into saints. The OC is disobey and die, which all who do not partake of the NC will experience. WDYT?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Rosangela]
#138192
12/17/11 05:01 PM
12/17/11 05:01 PM
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M: Did anyone die because they violated the terms and conditions of the OC?
R: Those who violated the terms and conditions of the OC (which were none other than loving God supremely and loving one's neighbor as oneself) were condemned to death. But this does not mean they would die immediately. Eternal death will happen after the millennium. Besides the ones Moses slew for worshiping the golden calf has anyone else died under the terms and conditions of the OC? For example, the men stoned to death for Sabbath-breaking and blasphemy, were they executed under the terms and conditions of the OC? And then, during final judgment, will they die eternally under the terms and conditions of the NC? Or, does the NC even have a death penalty? M: Or, was the OC annulled after the Jews worshiped the golden calf?
R: I don't think so. The fact that God rewrote the tables of stone implies that the covenant wasn't annulled.
M: And, was the OC a corporate contract (as opposed to a personal one)?
R: Yes, Ex 24 implies that.
M: Does the OC still exist today?
R: The OC - Sinaitic Covenant - was made with Israel, specifically to be a teaching tool to them, and ceased to exist when Christ died on the cross. Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. It seems reasonable to view the OC as an agreement between God and the Jews to serve as His chosen nation to proclaim the Gospel to the world. The OC, therefore, served as the basis of their corporate chosen nation status. The NC, however, applies to everyone everywhere and has always served as the basis of personal salvation since the Fall of A&E. Does the NC serve as the basis of the corporate chosen church status? Or, does a different covenant serve this purpose?
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: asygo]
#138193
12/17/11 05:07 PM
12/17/11 05:07 PM
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M: Did anyone die because they violated the terms and conditions of the OC?
R: Those who violated the terms and conditions of the OC (which were none other than loving God supremely and loving one's neighbor as oneself) were condemned to death. But this does not mean they would die immediately. Eternal death will happen after the millennium.
A: How about this: All who will not receive eternal life will eternally die under the OC. The NC is God writing His law in sinners, converting them into saints. The OC is disobey and die, which all who do not partake of the NC will experience. WDYT? Wasn't the OC an agreement between God and the Jewish nation and ended when Jesus died on the cross? Is it possible to sin and die eternally under the NC? What about all the people who sinned and died before God penned the OC and entered into OC relations with the Jews?
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#138234
12/19/11 12:36 AM
12/19/11 12:36 AM
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Wasn't the OC an agreement between God and the Jewish nation and ended when Jesus died on the cross? No. I see the OC as the covenant God made with sinless Adam. Obey and live, disobey and die. There were only two options, and Adam chose the second. The NC was made with Adam after he sinned, because he had no need of it until then. God gave them a glimpse of it by covering sinful man with the covering provided through the death of an animal. Is it possible to sin and die eternally under the NC? What about all the people who sinned and died before God penned the OC and entered into OC relations with the Jews? I don't believe that one can partake of the NC and die eternally. Here's why: Though this covenant was made with Adam and renewed to Abraham, it could not be ratified until the death of Christ. It had existed by the promise of God since the first intimation of redemption had been given; it had been accepted by faith; yet when ratified by Christ, it is called a new covenant. The law of God was the basis of this covenant, which was simply an arrangement for bringing men again into harmony with the divine will, placing them where they could obey God's law. {RH, October 17, 1907 par. 3} One who is living by the NC is in harmony with the divine will. There is no condemnation for such.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#138253
12/19/11 10:15 PM
12/19/11 10:15 PM
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Arnold, please quote from the Bible or the SOP where it says the OC existed in Eden. I agree with you that A&E possessed the ability within themselves to live in perfect harmony with the law of God and that they lost this ability when they sinned. I also happen to believe the one and only prohibition in Eden promised a sudden and immediate second death experience should they sin. It did not hold out hope. That's a pretty good description of the OC. Obey and live, disobey and die. It wasn't called the OC, but that's what they had in Eden. But if you want some inspiration.... It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. {SC 62.2}
The penalty of transgression is always death. Christ averted the immediate execution of the death sentence by giving His life for man. {HP 153.3}
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#138254
12/19/11 10:16 PM
12/19/11 10:16 PM
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PS - Arnold, do you think people are capable of sinning under the terms and conditions of the NC? Not while partaking of the NC. The NC is to bring us back from sin, not allow us to continue in it.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: asygo]
#138262
12/20/11 04:05 PM
12/20/11 04:05 PM
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Arnold, it has been interesting learning what you believe about the OC and NC. When Jesus writes the law in the hearts and minds of newborn believers they cease sinning and commence "perfecting holiness", namely, "righteousness and true holiness". See 2 Cor 7:1 and Ephesians 4:24. You describe the righteous and holy results of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature under the terms and conditions of the NC as sinful and selfish. At what point do you believe Christians begin experiencing the NC promises in Jer 31 and Eze 36? Jeremiah
31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ezekiel
36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
Hebrews
10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. Do you believe these passages promise selfish and sin-stained "righteousness and true holiness"? Or, do you think they promise sinless holiness and righteousness?
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