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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13824
10/21/05 02:04 AM
10/21/05 02:04 AM
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OP
SDA
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Southwest USA
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quote:
The heathens who worshipped God ignorantly, the ones Sister White referred to, did they know Him as Jesus Christ, the Son of God who bought their salvation on Calvary? Did they observe the seventh-day sabbath? Did they forbid graven images?
Also, somewhere on the many threads that you and I study on you have concluded that someone who is walking "in the Spirit" can indeed innocently and ignorantly practice one or more of the dreadful sins Paul listed In Galatians 5.
For examples to prove this point you named polygamy, smoking, selfish ambitions, and believing in the natural immortality of the soul (which, you said, misrepresents the character of God and is, therefore, a form of idolatry and a defective trait of character). Do remember ever posting anything like this? If not, then do you disagree with it?
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13825
10/21/05 02:44 AM
10/21/05 02:44 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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The heathens who worshipped God ignorantly, the ones Sister White referred to, did they know Him as Jesus Christ, the Son of God who bought their salvation on Calvary? Did they observe the seventh-day sabbath? Did they forbid graven images? The quote from DA addresses the first question. The second one would be no, unless some missionary had presented that truth at some point. The last question would probably depend on the heathens in question.Also, somewhere on the many threads that you and I study on you have concluded that someone who is walking "in the Spirit" can indeed innocently and ignorantly practice one or more of the dreadful sins Paul listed In Galatians 5. Once again you are not using language I have used. I would prefer that you use the language I actually use. I've never, to my knowledge, concluded what you are saying here that I have concluded, nor have I used language, I don't believe, which should cause you to think I have concluded this. Once again, I suggest you read what I actually wrote. To reaffirm what I have said, you stated that no one could do any of the things on the list in ignorance, and I showed that they could. The problem is you are addressing a different issue than Paul is. I am disagreeing with you, not with Paul. I agree with Paul.For examples to prove this point you named polygamy, smoking, selfish ambitions, and believing in the natural immortality of the soul (which, you said, misrepresents the character of God and is, therefore, a form of idolatry and a defective trait of character). Do remember ever posting anything like this? If not, then do you disagree with it? I did use these examples, but not to disprove what Paul said, but what you said. What needs to made clear is that you are not saying the same thing Paul is. I stated in my own words what I believe Paul is saying:
quote:
Here's how I would state it. Paul in Galatians 5 is discussing the difference of those who walk according to the Spirit and those who walk according to the flesh. Those who walk according to the Spirit will develop the fruit of the Spirit. Those who resist the Spirit, and insist and walking according to the flesh, will develop the works, or fruit, of the flesh and will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Do you agree with this summary?
You stated that no one could ignorantly do one of the things on Paul's list. This is NOT what Paul said. This is what YOU said. Paul's list includes things people do as a result of walking in the flesh. He did not claim it was impossible to do any of the things on the list in ignorance. YOU have claimed that, without providing any evidence that this is true. I HAVE provided evidence that it is not true, but you have ignored the arguments, preferring instead to ignore them and misinterpret what I have written as disagreeing with Paul.
I hope I have made clear that I do not disagree with Paul, but only with you, and why I disagree with you (but not Paul). If I haven't been clear enough, I'll try again.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13826
10/22/05 12:14 AM
10/22/05 12:14 AM
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OP
SDA
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quote:
Tom: Also I wouldn't limit what God teaches to the last six commandments. I see no reason to do so. Romans 1 specifically states that God has revealed Himself, so they all should give thanks to Him, so this is entering into areas covered by the first four commandments.
Mike: The heathens who worshipped God ignorantly, the ones Sister White referred to, did they know Him as Jesus Christ, the Son of God who bought their salvation on Calvary? Did they observe the seventh-day sabbath? Did they forbid graven images?
Tom: The quote from DA addresses the first question [I assume you mean - No]. The second one would be no, unless some missionary had presented that truth at some point [does her quote indicate such a possibility]. The last question would probably depend on the heathens in question [are there any heathens that do not have graven images to represent their gods].
Your answers above imply heathens do not obey the first commandments unless they've been taught them. Do you agree?
quote:
To reaffirm what I have said, you stated that no one could do any of the things on the list in ignorance, and I showed that they could.
[Paul] did not claim it was impossible to do any of the things on the list in ignorance. YOU have claimed that, without providing any evidence that this is true. I HAVE provided evidence that it is not true …
I have said all along that born again believers, who are walking “in the Spirit” (Gal 5:16), cannot possess and/or develop any of the sins Paul listed in Galatians 5 AND “enter the kingdom of God”. I have also specified that they will not and cannot, either knowingly or unknowingly, possess them at any time subsequent to their conversion – if they are walking in the Spirit. Do you agree?
My evidence that it’s true is Galatians 5:16. "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." And then he names the very sins they will not do. But you seem to be insisting that it is possible to do them without realizing it. Or, did I misunderstand your position?
What is your evidence that a born again believer, who is walking in the Spirit, can possess and/or develop one or more the sins Paul listed without realizing it is wrong? Are you referring to polygamy, smoking, selfish ambition, and false doctrine? Did Paul name these specific sins in his list? If so, please show me. Thank you.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13827
10/22/05 03:13 AM
10/22/05 03:13 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding the heathen, Romans 1 says those who reject God are without excuse, because they are not thankful to Him. Hence what God reveals about His character is enough for the heathen to recognize His goodness to the point they know to be thankful to Him. Whether or not there is some quote from the Spirit or Prophesy talking about missionaries visiting them and talking about the Sabbath, such a thing is obviously possible. Pitcairn Island is an example. Regarding heathens and idoaltry, there was a time in Egpyt's history where they were apparently monotheistic, so that's one example. I saw on the net references to ancient Near Eastern monotheistic cultures, so that would be another. To think that every heathen who ever lived worshipped idols is pretty far-fetched sounding to me. Regarding Galatians 5, I think I have stated at least a half dozen times now that what I was disagreeing with was your statement that it is impossible for a born-again believer to ignorantly do any of the items on Paul's list. This is clearly false. "Selfish ambition" is in the NJKV version, which I pointed out. I don't remember citing "false doctrine". However I did cite "heresies". An example of a heresy is believing that God will torture the wicked. quote:
It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? (GC 536)
It's certainly possible for born-again believers to hold this heresy in ignorance, given that most, in fact, do.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13828
10/23/05 12:52 AM
10/23/05 12:52 AM
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OP
SDA
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quote:
Regarding the heathen, Romans 1 says those who reject God are without excuse, because they are not thankful to Him. Hence what God reveals about His character is enough for the heathen to recognize His goodness to the point they know to be thankful to Him.
When heathens worship god ignorantly are they worshipping God as we know Him? Are they thankful to the same God we are? Is their concept of God the same as ours? If not, does it count as obeying the first commandment?
quote:
Whether or not there is some quote from the Spirit or Prophesy talking about missionaries visiting them and talking about the Sabbath, such a thing is obviously possible.
Tom, I’m not referring to the SOP in general. I am referring specifically to the quote you posted to prove your point. DA 638. Can heathens obey the first four commandments, like an informed believer, if they have never been taught them from the Bible?
quote:
To think that every heathen who ever lived worshipped idols is pretty far-fetched sounding to me.
Did the Egyptians and the Near Eastern religions you cited refuse to use idols as part of their worship? to represent their god?
quote:
Regarding Galatians 5, I think I have stated at least a half dozen times now that what I was disagreeing with was your statement that it is impossible for a born-again believer to ignorantly do any of the items on Paul's list. This is clearly false.
Did Paul make such an exception? Did he say, “Walk in the Spirit and you may very well accidentally commit one or more of the following sins”?
What is about - "Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh ... which are these ..." - that makes you think Paul was saying what I said above?
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13829
10/23/05 06:05 AM
10/23/05 06:05 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike, I don't understand what you're trying to get at regarding the heathen questions. Here's what I originally wrote: ----------------------------------------------- I think it's wrong to emphasize the instinctive part. I think that a minor portion of what we know. God should receive much greater credit for the active role He takes. Jesus Christ is the light which lightens every man who comes into the world. The Gentiles know what they do, not by birth, but because of what God has revealed to them. This is the consistent revelation of inspiration, including, for example, Ps. 19, John 1:9, and Romans 1. Here's a statement from the Spirit of Prophecy: quote:
Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God.(DA 638)
1)They cherished His priniples.
2)Through the influence of the Spirit they have been a blessin.
3)They have heard His voice speaking to them in nature.
4)The Holy Spirit has touched their hearts
Notice she doesn't attribute their knowledge or ability to keep the law to anything instinctual, but rather as a result of the direct working of God. I don't see that have you provided any evidence to support your claim that our moral knowledge is only instinctual. I've provided evidence that it comes through the working of God, but you have not acknolwedged this.
Also I wouldn't limit what God teaches to the last six commandments. I see no reason to do so. Romans 1 specifically states that God has revealed Himself, so they all should give thanks to Him, so this is entering into areas covered by the first four commandments.
----------------------------------------------
You seem to be disagreeing with my last point, thinking that only the last six commandments are known to man by God's revelation of Himself through nature and through His Spirit. Can you support your view?
Also please note the point I made above, which I'll repeat here:
quote:
Notice she doesn't attribute their knowledge or ability to keep the law to anything instinctual, but rather as a result of the direct working of God.
It appears to me the Spirit of Prophecy is presenting a completely differnt interpretation than you are. You ascribe the heathen's knowledge of God to be 100% instinctual and limited to the last six commandments. She does neither.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13830
10/23/05 06:13 AM
10/23/05 06:13 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding Galatians 5, I think I have stated at least a half dozen times now that what I was disagreeing with was your statement that it is impossible for a born-again believer to ignorantly do any of the items on Paul's list. This is clearly false.
Did Paul make such an exception?
No, Paul did not make express your idea, that a person can not ignorantly do one of the items on the list. This idea of yours is yours alone.
Did he say, “Walk in the Spirit and you may very well accidentally commit one or more of the following sins”?
No, he did not discuss ignorantly doing one of the items on his list. This was your idea.
What is about - "Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh ... which are these ..." - that makes you think Paul was saying what I said above?
I don't understand your question.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13831
10/24/05 02:21 AM
10/24/05 02:21 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
It appears to me the Spirit of Prophecy is presenting a completely differnt interpretation than you are. You ascribe the heathen's knowledge of God to be 100% instinctual and limited to the last six commandments. She does neither.
Actually, I have been saying that their knowledge of God, as revealed in scriptures, is non-existent. Their conception of God is not based on Bible truth. Yes, they worshipped a god because they were impressed through the nature and the ever present influence of the Holy Spirit that there is a creator-god. But they did not worship God as defined and described in the Bible. Nor did they worship God in accordance with the first four commandments.
God, nevertheless, accepted their worship of their god[s] as valid and legitimate. They ignorantly worshipped Him. Paul tried, though unsuccessfully, for the most part, to appeal to the heathens' desire to worship a god[s] by explaining to them the god that they worshipped as the unknown god was actually Jesus Christ, the one and only true God.
The evidence that what I am saying is true is the fact no one or no group of people, who never heard Bible truths, worshipped God according to the first four commandments. But it is clear that they obeyed the last six commandments – both instinctively and as they learned them more thoroughly from their culture and surroundings.
Why is this point important? I believe no one is guiltless of violating one of the last six commandments because no one is ignorant of them. We know them naturally, instinctively. Thus, God will determine our eternal reward in judgment based on whether or not we lived up to our conscience and convictions. No one can claim to have not known it was wrong to develop a trait of character in violation of one or more of the last six commandments.
A hidden character defect, therefore, is not a cultivated trait that ignorantly or accidentally violates one or more of the last six commandments.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13832
10/24/05 02:28 AM
10/24/05 02:28 AM
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OP
SDA
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Posts: 22,256
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quote:
Mike: Did he say, “Walk in the Spirit and you may very well accidentally commit one or more of the following sins”?
Tom: No, he did not discuss ignorantly doing one of the items on his list. This was your idea.
Mike: What is it about - "Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh ... which are these ..." - that makes you think Paul was saying what I said above?
Tom: I don't understand your question.
When you read verse 16 what is it about it that makes you think Paul is saying a born again believer can ignorantly possess and/or develop one or more of the sins Paul listed?
Since you have admitted that's not what he was saying, why, then, do you believe it? Is there somewhere else where he or someone else said so?
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13833
10/23/05 05:59 PM
10/23/05 05:59 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The evidence that what I am saying is true is the fact no one or no group of people, who never heard Bible truths, worshipped God according to the first four commandments. But it is clear that they obeyed the last six commandments – both instinctively and as they learned them more thoroughly from their culture and surroundings.
So your theory is based on a personal observation, not on Scripture.
Why is this point important? I believe no one is guiltless of violating one of the last six commandments because no one is ignorant of them. We know them naturally, instinctively.
Again, this is just a personal theory, correct?
Thus, God will determine our eternal reward in judgment based on whether or not we lived up to our conscience and convictions.
I agree with this. This is Scriptural. However, there's nothing in Scripture which suggests that what is known of God is purely , or primarily, instinctual. Also, there's nothing in Scripture which limits the judgment to the last six commandments. It is true that God accepts the imperfect obedience of the heathen, winking at their ignorance, but this winking applies just as much to the last six commandments as to the first four.
No one can claim to have not known it was wrong to develop a trait of character in violation of one or more of the last six commandments.
If this statement were true, it would also applty to the first four. The standard of judgment is not the Six Commandments; it's the Ten.
A hidden character defect, therefore, is not a cultivated trait that ignorantly or accidentally violates one or more of the last six commandments.
A hidden character defect is a defect of character which one has of which one is ignorant. This can apply to any of the Ten Commandments. We can ignorantly break any one of them. When we begin to understand the breadth of the commandments, and to understand Christ's obedience to them, we may begin to comprehend our ignorance.
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