Yes, I know a person who used to say that he hadn't sinned in 20 years.

I don't know if he is still saying this today though.

Hello John,

Your recent statement - "EGW wrote many times about and to people who had character flaws that were unknown to them, and these were people who had been converted SDAs for many years." - prompts some questions.

It is true that EGW wrote often to others urging their reform and complete consecration, sometimes in very strong terms. It appears she had a burden for their souls, which at times she declared were imperiled.

But were these flaws unknown to themselves, or rather were these flaws denied, glossed over and covered up? Can a truly converted Christian have soul-damning flaws/sins and be unaware of them? This would seem to lay the charge at Christ's feet for not informing his members of deadly danger.

And can you be sure these were truly converted SDAs "for years". Perhaps they had experienced conversion long before, but had backslidden to lukewarmness (which does not enter the gates, but is spued out), or open sin, as with J.H. Waggoner. Perhaps they were long in the church, but never truly converted, as Peter was admonished "when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Luke 22:32.

Perhaps you have ample SOP evidence to support your assertions. If so, could you provide it?

It does not seem possible that EGW would need to write to truly converted Christians to warn them of soul destroying sins.

Please elaborate and clarify your statement,

Thank you,

Gordon

A couple of minor corrections, Gordon.

1.If you are thinking of Rev. 3 in regards to the lukewarmness, Christ does not spue the lukewarm out of His mouth. Rather He feels sick to His stomach. It's like lukewarm water makes you want to vomit. But the Greek says Christ is "about" to spue them out of His mouth. When this expression is used elsewhere in the NT, it describes an action which is about to take place, but doesn't. For example, John was "about" to write down something before he was told not to.

2.Peter had been truly converted before his fall. Both Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy bear this out. He was converted, and then fell, and then re-converted. Judas was the only one of the disciples who was never converted.

Some good food for thought Gordon, especially your point that if we remain in a soul-destroying sin after conversion through genuine ignorance, that would strongly suggest that God was somehow at fault in not enlightening us. We know that that isn't possible. God will enlighten anyone who is willing to be enlightened regarding salvation.

What is a soul-destroying sin though? The only one that can't be pardoned is the sin against the Holy Spirit - refusing to be enlightened on any point.

MM is saying that after conversion we are enlightened and no longer sin ignorantly. Yesterday I came across this statement by Martin Luther in his Preface to Romans. Luther says that after conversion we are justified but not just. Conversion and sanctification are both aspects of the same thing, salvation, and both are works of a life-time. Luther would add, both are the work of Christ in us through the gifts and none of it is our own work.

Quote:

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“Grace” and “gift” differ in that grace actually denotes God's kindness or favor which he has toward us and by which he is disposed to pour Christ and the Spirit with his gifts into us, as becomes clear from chapter 5, where Paul says, "Grace and gift are in Christ, etc." The gifts and the Spirit increase daily in us, yet they are not complete, since evil desires and sins remain in us which war against the Spirit, as Paul says in chapter 7, and in Galations, chapter 5. And Genesis, chapter 3, proclaims the enmity between the offspring of the woman and that of the serpent. But grace does do this much: that we are accounted completely just before God. God's grace is not divided into bits and pieces, as are the gifts, but grace takes us up completely into God's favor for the sake of Christ, our intercessor and mediator, so that the gifts may begin their work in us.

In this way, then, you should understand chapter 7, where St. Paul portrays himself as still a sinner, while in chapter 8 he says that, because of the incomplete gifts and because of the Spirit, there is nothing damnable in those who are in Christ. Because our flesh has not been killed, we are still sinners, but because we believe in Christ and have the beginnings of the Spirit, God so shows us his favor and mercy, that he neither notices nor judges such sins. Rather he deals with us according to our belief in Christ until sin is killed.

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JH: Mike, I haven't read all the many pages that constitute this thread, and don't plan on doing so. But I am well acquainted with your views on instant character perfection upon conversion.

MM: From what you’ve posted here it is clear to me you are not as familiar with the view of conversion, rebirth, and moral perfection I have embraced as you say you are. The Bible and the SOP quotes posted throughout this thread, especially the ones posted above, make it clear that truly born again believers are reborn morally complete in Christ.

JH: Let me ask you this -- have you never run an SOP search using phrases such as "character defects," "defects of character," and the like? EGW wrote many times about and to people who had character flaws that were unknown to them, and these were people who had been converted SDAs for many years. So according to God's prophet, your views on this subject cannot be correct.

MM: Yes, I have done an extensive search. In fact, this thread deals with those findings. You might want to reconsider your unwillingness to read it.

JH: Furthermore, I've seen you talk about how you've attained to moral perfection, in keeping with your views; but Sis. White again wrote repeatedly about people who make such claims. She said that those who lay claim to religious perfection of any kind are really the ones who are the farthest from it. Those who draw the closest to God are those who most deeply feel their unworthiness. Such truly holy people would never claim to be perfect, morally or in any other way.

MM: Moral perfection is a gift we receive the moment we experience the miracle of rebirth. Jesus implants within us the sinless seed or mind of the new man. It comes complete with all the righteous fruit and attributes of God’s character. See quotes above. Although we are born again with all of the righteous traits and tendencies of God’s character we are not, however, born again morally mature. Sanctification is the lifelong process, including eternal life, of maturing in the fruits of Spirits, of developing the traits and tendencies we received the moment we were born again.

JH: I could post many quotations here in support of what I'm saying, but I think it might be more fruitful if you'd run the searches and discover these things for yourself.

MM: Again, John, it has already been done and posted on this thread. Please take a minute to read it. Thank you.

DF: Yes, I know a person who used to say that he hadn't sinned in 20 years. I don't know if he is still saying this today though.

MM: Daryl, do you know of anyone on MSDAOL who is claiming not to have sinned for such and such a period of time? If so, please repost it here. Thank you. Also, what prompted you to post such a thing on this thread?

MS: MM is saying that after conversion we are enlightened and no longer sin ignorantly.

MM: Mark, I have gone to great lengths to explain the difference between moral and mental sins. No one, especially a born again believer, can commit a moral sin without realizing it. Not even heathens. Everyone knows before and after they are converted whether they are guilty of committing a moral sin or not. See Romans 2:13-15.

However, a sincerely converted believer can, in theory, be guilty of committing certain sins ignorantly, that is, without realizing it. I'm not talking about unintentional sins. An unintentional sin is one that we know is wrong but it slipped out of his spontaneously. We repent of it immediately. Neither am I talking about breaking anyone of the last six commandments. Again, everyone, whether born again or not, knows when they are guilty of breaking one of the last six commandments. We are naturally born with such knowledge.

A sin of ignorance is a mental or intellectual issue. It has to do with Biblical insights which require Bible study and conviction before we can be aware of such wrongdoing. We are not born with this knowledge. We must first read about it in the Bible and then experience conviction regarding it before we can be aware of it.

There is no such thing as a sin of ignorance as it pertains to the last six commandments. It only applies to those things that must first be learned through Bible study and conviction. Do you see the same difference?

Hello Tom,

Thank you for your reply. Primarily I am asking John if there is evidence to support his statement that ‘EGW wrote to converted Christians to warn them of unknown character flaws.’ I do not recall reading such statements or sentiments from her pen.

This morning I reviewed the corrections you posted.

1. Yes, I refer to ‘lukewarm’ as spoken in Rev. 3:16, and applied to the church of the Laodiceans. The word you have keyed upon is 'will', as highlighted below:

Rev. 3:16 - So then because thou art likewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

You assert this action will not happen, based upon the Greek. I find otherwise, that based upon the NT Greek, this action will come to pass. This word ‘mello’ (Strong’s 3195 - to intend ) occurs over one hundred times in the NT and the following verses give context to actions which came to pass, as evidenced by Scriptural record.

Matt. 2:13 - Herod will seek the young child (Christ) - Herod did seek
Matt. 17:12 - Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them - He did.
Matt. 17:22 - The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men - He was
John 7:39 - the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive - they did
John 11:51 - he prophesied that Jesus should die - Jesus died
John 14:22 - how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us - Jesus did
Acts 3:3 - seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple - they did
Acts 11:28 - that there should be great dearth in the world: which came to pass
Acts 20:7 - Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow - he did depart
Rev. 12:4 - woman which was ready to be delivered - she did deliver

Other references relate to intended actions which were interrupted by Providence (as in your example of John in Rev. 10:4 - "I was about to write...and I heard a voice...write them not"), or to prophecies yet unfulfilled:

Matt. 16:27 - the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father - He will
Matt. 24:6 - And ye shall hear of wars - we do
Acts 17:31 - a day, in the which he will judge the world - He will
Acts 24:15 - that there shall be a resurrection of the dead - there will be
Heb. 1:14 - who shall be heirs of salvation? - they shall
Rev. 3:10 - hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world - it will
Rev. 3: 16 - I will spue thee out - He will
Rev. 8:13 - three angels, which are yet to sound! - they will

I believe these examples, when read in context, will confirm that mello can define a finished action. Only zealous repentance can elicit a pardon from the sentence “I will spue thee out”.

(Tepid or lukewarm water is my regular beverage, without ill effect - I recommend it)

The following post will quote from EGW sources using ‘lukewarm’ in the Rev. 3:16 context.

Gordon

Hello Tom,

Here are some Ellen White observations on the church, or assembly of those found in the Laodicean condition, labelled by Christ as “lukewarm”. Included are some of the warnings EGW sent to professing Christians, but she makes it very clear they are not converted.

The great mass of professing Christians will meet with bitter disappointment in the day of God. They have not upon their foreheads the seal of the living God. Lukewarm and halfhearted, they dishonor God far more than the avowed unbeliever. - 7BC 970

There are a large number of professing Christians who do not really follow Jesus. They do not bear the cross by proper self-denial and self-sacrifice. Although making a great profession of being earnest Christians, they weave into the fabric of their character so many of the threads of their own imperfections that the beautiful pattern is spoiled. Of them Christ says: "You boast of being rich and increased with supposed spiritual attainments. In reality you are neither cold nor hot, but are filled with vain conceit. Unless converted, you cannot be saved; for you would mar heaven with your unsanctified wisdom. I cannot endorse your spirit and your work. You do not act according to the divine Example. You are following a pattern merely of your own invention. Because you are lukewarm, I must spew you out of My mouth." - 7BC 962

There are those who, though professedly serving God, are witnessing against Him. To them the message to the Laodicean church is given. Christ says to them, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot." When the avenging angel shall pass through the land, Christ cannot say of them, "Touch them not. I have graven them upon the palms of my hands." No; of these halfhearted ones He says, "I will spew them out of my mouth. They are offensive to me" - 7BC 963

Christ can not present before the Father those who are lukewarm ...”I will spue thee out” (Rev. 3:16, 17 quoted) - General Conference Bulletin, April 6, 1903.


  I saw that many measure themselves among themselves, and compare their lives with the lives of others. This should not be. No one but Christ is given us as an example. He is our true Pattern, and each should strive to excel in imitating Him. We are co-workers with Christ, or co-workers with the enemy. We either gather with Christ or scatter abroad. We are decided, wholehearted Christians, or none at all. Says Christ: "I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of My mouth." - 1T 126.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of My mouth." Were you cold, there would be some hope that you would be converted; but where self-righteousness girds one about, instead of the righteousness of Christ, the deception is so difficult to be seen, and the self-righteousness so hard to be put away, that the case is the most difficult to reach. An unconverted, godless sinner stands in a more favorable condition than such.

You are a stumbling block to sinners. Your lack of consecration is marked. You are scattering from Christ instead of gathering with Him...you are--just that which God cannot accept, just that which, if you remain the same, will be stubble for the fire to consume in the day of God. - 2T 176

Sins exist in the church that God hates, but they are scarcely touched for fear of making enemies. Opposition has risen in the church to the plain testimony. Some will not bear it.

When the church depart from God they despise the plain testimony, and complain of severity and harshness. It is a sad evidence of the lukewarm state of the church.

     Just as long as God has a church, he will have those who will cry aloud and spare not, who will be his instruments to reprove selfishness and sins, and will not shun to declare the whole counsel of God, whether men will hear or forbear. I saw that individuals would rise up against the plain testimonies. It does not suit their natural feelings. They would choose to have smooth things spoken unto them, and have peace cried in their ears. I view the church in a more dangerous condition than they ever have been. Experimental religion is known but by a few. The shaking must soon take place to purify the church. 2 Spiritual Gifts, 283, 284. (c.1858)

Many of our people are lukewarm. They occupy the position of Meroz, neither for nor against, neither cold nor hot. They hear the words of Christ, but do them not. If they remain in this state, He will reject them with abhorrence. - 5T 76-77

This is a long post , but it speaks with one voice. There is no hint or even slight suggestion from Ellen White that those in the Laodicean/lukewarm state will be saved. To search ‘Lukewarm’ on the EGW Estate yields 168 hits, many multiple entries. The only hope for Laodicea is zealous repentance. Those unrepentant, unconverted, will be shaken out and rejected.

Upon what basis do you make your assertions, Tom? They are diametrically oppossed to the plain testimony. We are in dangerous error to explain away such prophecies uttered in warning and love from our Saviour. I see no basis for your claims, but please bring forth your evidence.

Thank you for prompting this revealing study, which has blessed my understanding.

In a later post I'll respond to your statement on Peter's conversion.

Bro. Gordon

I agree with the point that if one does not repent, then one will be rejected. There are those who take the Rev. 3 statement and argue that God has rejected, or will reject, the SDA church, because of its lukewarmness, and point to this verse to make their case.

The reason for rejection is brought out by Jesus Christ:

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3)

Here is a portion of a sermon by A. T. Jones:

"I COUNSEL thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in unto him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev.3:10-20.

GCBD93 page 0200 paragraph 8 This is the counsel that we want to study to-night. I counsel thee. Who is this? [Congregation: Christ.] What is he called in the 14th verse? [Congregation: Faithful and True Witness.] He will make quite a good counselor, will he? The faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God, comes and counsels you and me. Isn't that a good deal of condescension, considering the place from whence the counselor comes? That which we have been studying during the several lessons that are past, that which has come before us so constantly and so fully a few days past now, that word sent to the Laodicean church as to what we are, and how we do not know it - that has come to us from every point of the compass, hasn't it, the last few days? It has come from every side, and from every mouth that has spoken, and the Lord with all the rest has spoken direct to us in the word that was read yesterday upon that very thing. Well, I suppose that all now are ready to confess that what he says is so. So I will not repeat any of that to-night.

He has told us that, and now if we confess that that is so, we shall be ready to take his counsel and appreciate it, and will profit by his counsel, because it is only those persons whom he counsels. Those who receive his testimony; those who are spoken of just before this; he counsels those who are poor, wretched, miserable, blind and naked and do not know it; those that are lukewarm - that is the people to whom this counsel is given. Well, having been brought to that place by the word and testimony, and in every way the Lord has dealt with us these days that are past, in all the lessons that have been given us, then he stoops down and counsels us. Isn't that so? Then, brethren, let us not be so slow to take this counsel as we were the other. Let us not be so slow to come to a place where we can adopt this, as we were to get into a place where we could adopt the other.

This is from another:

Now the question as to whether there is any need of it. Suppose we say we do not see anything to confess at all. That does not touch the matter in any way. When God sends us word that we are sinful, it is for us to say we are so, whether we can see it or not. That should be our experience. We feel rich and increased in goods, and know not that we are wretched and miserable and blind and naked. This is just our condition exactly, whether we can see it or not. When God sends us a message and tells us to believe it, it is time for us to be about it. When he sends out these instructions, it is time that we should confess our sins, and set about to remove them, and to see how long a time it will take, just notice this example in 2Sam.12, where the Lord sent the prophet Nathaniel to David, who said "Thou art the man."

These are from the 1893 General Conference session. The first comment is from A. T. Jones, the second by W. W. Prescott.

This is from Ellen White:

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe" [1 Thess. 2:13]. The word of God cannot work effectually in the heart when it is barred out by unbelief. The message which the messengers have been proclaiming is the message to the Laodicean church. [Rev. 3:14-20, quoted.] (1888 Materials, 1051)

I had in mind A. T. Jones' message, which EGW recognizes as being from God. A. T. Jones makes constant reference to the Laodicean message as referring to ourselves. We all are poor, wretched, miserable, blind and naked, and have need to repent.

Perhaps I should not have commented because this is really not the same context as the discussion MM was bringing up. But we can continue the discussion if you wish.