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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#138290
12/21/11 10:13 AM
12/21/11 10:13 AM
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Arnold, it has been interesting learning what you believe about the OC and NC. When Jesus writes the law in the hearts and minds of newborn believers they cease sinning and commence "perfecting holiness", namely, "righteousness and true holiness". See 2 Cor 7:1 and Ephesians 4:24. You describe the righteous and holy results of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature under the terms and conditions of the NC as sinful and selfish. At what point do you believe Christians begin experiencing the NC promises in Jer 31 and Eze 36? Arnold certainly will reply, but I would like to say that although at the new birth the law is written in our minds and hearts, it is also true that "in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells" (Rom. 7:18). As I said, if you fill with juice a bottle where some drops of poison had been put, can you separate the poison from the juice? Is some particle of the juice not contaminated with the poison? The juice was pure in its origin, but it's no longer pure after it has been put in the bottle.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Rosangela]
#138304
12/21/11 04:35 PM
12/21/11 04:35 PM
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M: Arnold, it has been interesting learning what you believe about the OC and NC. When Jesus writes the law in the hearts and minds of newborn believers they cease sinning and commence "perfecting holiness", namely, "righteousness and true holiness". See 2 Cor 7:1 and Ephesians 4:24. You describe the righteous and holy results of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature under the terms and conditions of the NC as sinful and selfish. At what point do you believe Christians begin experiencing the NC promises in Jer 31 and Eze 36?
R: Arnold certainly will reply, but I would like to say that although at the new birth the law is written in our minds and hearts, it is also true that "in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells" (Rom. 7:18). As I said, if you fill with juice a bottle where some drops of poison had been put, can you separate the poison from the juice? Is some particle of the juice not contaminated with the poison? The juice was pure in its origin, but it's no longer pure after it has been put in the bottle. When do you think the NC promise becomes a reality, that is, when will born-again believers cease sinning? Also, are you saying the righteous results of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature are sinful and selfish?
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#138313
12/21/11 06:23 PM
12/21/11 06:23 PM
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On the first question, there, my answer would be: only the Father himself knows, but it is promised. The moment we are pardoned is the moment we are born again, though, experiencing peace with God in justification by faith: turning to sinning again is not abiding in Jesus by faith, so the righteous experience by faith is interrupted, but grace remains.
The sinful, selfish option is our carnal mind - used to sinning, and shows up again soon as we turn from Jesus' righteousness back to sinning. Sinful and righteous mindsets are available simultaneously, with faith being the method and experience of switching from sin to righteous minds & living.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#138334
12/23/11 03:59 AM
12/23/11 03:59 AM
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You describe the righteous and holy results of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature under the terms and conditions of the NC as sinful and selfish. No, abiding in Jesus gives us righteousness and holiness. However, our sinfulness and selfishness continue to be sinful and selfish. At what point do you believe Christians begin experiencing the NC promises in Jer 31 and Eze 36? When we receive them as a gift from Jesus. While we continue to view them as "trophies" to be earned by us copying Jesus, we will never experience them, no matter how "good" we might be. Do you believe these passages promise selfish and sin-stained "righteousness and true holiness"? Or, do you think they promise sinless holiness and righteousness? Yes, they promise holiness and righteousness. But these promises are fulfilled as we receive Christ's holiness and righteousness, NOT as we replicate them. Our best attempts to copy Christ fall short of God's standard until our selfishness is removed.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#138359
12/24/11 02:10 PM
12/24/11 02:10 PM
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Arnold, do you believe the NC promises include born-again believers actually experiencing "righteousness and true holiness" without the stain of sin and selfishness? Or, does the NC promise only the imputed righteousness of Jesus? The NC does not promise immediate removal of our selfishness. It promises perfection IN Jesus, not IDENTICAL to Jesus. Our righteousness is imputed, not emulated. You believe that Jesus had selfishness. Do you believe that believers are less selfish than Jesus?
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #10 (4th Quarter 2011): The Two Covenants
[Re: asygo]
#138360
12/24/11 03:24 PM
12/24/11 03:24 PM
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Yes, I believe Jesus' sinful flesh selfishly clamored for unholy expression, that is, it tempted Him from within to satisfy His innocent and legitimate needs in sinful, selfish ways. But, praise the Lord, Jesus never once indulged the ungodly desires of His sinful, selfish flesh. Born-again believers, who are abiding in Jesus, likewise rein in their sinful, selfish flesh so that they do not and cannot sin. In the place of sinning, they grow daily in grace and mature more and more in the fruits of the Spirit. They "advance from one stage of perfection to the next". If this isn't what the NC promises, what does it promise?
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