M: Arnold and Rosangela seem to say, no, self does not die when Jesus lives in newborn believers. They seem to think self dies sometime afterward. In the meantime, the righteous results of abiding are selfish and sin-stained, the character is flawed.
A: I won't speak for Rosangela, but I'm pretty sure we're on the same page here. Self is to be crucified with Christ, and we are to reckon ourselves dead sin and alive to God. Reckoning it dead includes not listening to its selfish clamors, while maintaining an attitude of repentance because we fall short of God's selflessness. That is in contrast to what you're saying. You say that self is dead, but all the while it is still very much alive, even in Christ's own heart. But as long as it remains hidden behind a facade of good behavior, it is considered holy and righteous.
What do you mean by "its selfish clamors"?
It wants to gratify itself, and calls and draws the person to sin.
The Old Man. The sinful nature. The carnal mind. The flesh. Different names for the same thing: self.
I don't know the mechanism. But we all have experienced its pull toward sin.
Are we guilty of sinning in the sight of God because "it" clamors?
Let's not fool ourselves. "It" is "us" in no uncertain terms. Don't try to pass the buck here.
So let's state this question properly: Are we guilty of sinning in the sight of God because "we" clamor for sin?
The answer is Yes.
What do you mean by "we fall short of God's selflessness"? Please share some concrete examples.
God is selfless. When He does good, He does it purely for others' benefit, not His own. And He does this wholeheartedly.
Our "goodness" is not quite that good. Whenever we walk in the Spirit, a part of us always pulls in the opposite direction.
In what sense do you think I believe "it is still very much alive"?
You hear the call to sin, don't you? It is not silent. And the calls comes from yourself. It lives, though hidden.
In what sense do you think I believe "it [was] very much alive . . . even in Christ's own heart"? Does "it" clamor?
You say that Christ faced the same exact difficulties that you and I face in overcoming sin. You say He was tempted, not just on the same points, but in the same ways.
Here's what the SOP says about what we face:
If you will not, then you can not overcome. The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God. {COL 331.2}If our difficulty comes from our unsanctified hearts are corrupt, and we are unwilling to submit to God, then you must believe that Jesus also had the same difficulties. But to be the kind of example you envision, it can't even be the corruption and unwillingness of a saint like Mary, but the corruption and unwillingness of the worst of humanity.
Can "it" sin? If so, how?
To lust after a woman is sin, even if we don't actually do it. The same would be true of Christ's lusts.
What do you mean by "a facade of good behavior"?
You say that as long as Jesus can hide His corrupted heart behind the good actions of His body, that's good enough. And if we can do the same, that's also good enough.
That's a facade - a superficial, artificial appearance of holiness. True holiness is an inner quality.
Also, what do you mean by "it is considered holy and righteous"?
You consider one holy and righteous as long as his outward acts are good. I also consider the inner lusts.
Is there a distinction between "it's clamors" and the "new desires" believers experience while abiding in Jesus?
Yes. They are very different. And to say that sinful clamors are OK because your new desires are OK is wiping away the distinction.
Reply
Quote
