So your theory is based on a personal observation, not on Scripture.

No. I cited Rom 2:13-15 as proof, but you categorically rejected it. Do you also reject the fruits as seen in reality?

Yes, you did cite Rom. 2:13-15, but it seems to me your idea is more a product of observation than what the text says. Even in this thread you are asking me to provide an example to my assertion that God's winking applies as much to the first four commandments as to the last six.

There's nothing in Rom. 2:13-15 which suggests that what the heathen know by nature is limited, or even primarily, something instinctual. Rom. 1 talks about how man knows what can be known of God because God has shown it to them. From the Spirit of Prophesy statement in DA we read that the heathen have cherished God's princples which God communicated to them through His Spirit and by His voice speaking in nature. There was no mention of them knowing something instinctually; rather it is by virtue of God's communicating to them.

I didn't understand your question about fruits.

It is true that God accepts the imperfect obedience of the heathen, winking at their ignorance, but this winking applies just as much to the last six commandments as to the first four.

Can you provide an example? If a heathen, against his conscience and convictions, steals something, will God wink at it in judgment (I'm not saying you believe this)?

God's winks at ignorance. This principle applies to the first four commandments as well as to the last six. One example of breaking one of the last six commandments in ignorance would be polygamy. Another example would be not loving your enemy. Coveting comes to mind. Is coveting something one knows instinctually is wrong? That seems doubtful. Paul says he wouldn't have known coveting was wrong except the law said, "Thou shalt not covet" which implies this commandment is not something one knows instinctually. According to the Spirit of Prophecy, the prohibition against bearing false witness encompasses much more than simply not lying. This broader perspective is not something one would know instinctually, so God would wink at it. That's four examples. I could provide more.

None of the commandments are known in their entirety, as they were revealed in Christ, by instinct. All of them involving learning, and winking.

If this statement were true, it would also applty to the first four. The standard of judgment is not the Six Commandments; it's the Ten.

Do you think there will be people in heaven who never heard of Jesus in this lifetime? If so, then upon what basis were they admitted?

Take a look at the DA statement I quoted above. The answer is there. "They have cherished His principles." This is no different than for those who have heard of Jesus. Those who cherish the principles of God will be taken to heaven because they will be happy there. Those who would not be happy in heaven, God will in mercy allow to die. (GC 541-543)

We can ignorantly break any one of them.

Do you think this applies to a born again believer?

Yes. When one considers how the law was kept by Christ, one becomes aware that one breaks them ignorantly all the time. None of us keeps the law as perfectly as Christ did. We are not held accountable for what we don't know, but this doesn't change the fact that in ignorance we break the law. The simplest example of this is the Sabbath command. Another example that comes to mind would be Catholics who have a saving relationship with Christ yet nevertheless break the second commandment to some extent. The Spirit of Prophecy tells us we can committ idolatry by holding to some personal opinion, which is something I reckon we're all guilty of to varying degrees.

That is, do you believe it is possible for a born again believer to lie, steal, cheat, murder, commit adultery, without realizing, during or shortly after the fact, it is wrong? I’m not talking about unwittingly doing something wrong, something you know is wrong but didn’t realize you did it (like not realizing you killed the neighbors cat by backing up the car over it).

Yes, it's possible. If you read "Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing" you will realise that the commandments do not only cover negative things, but positive as well. One could easily read something from that book and realise that one has been in ignorance breaking one of the principles. For example, one might have been subtly gossiping or telling "white lies" without being convicted of this, but the Holy Spirit brings some point to mind which was previously unknown. The law is "exceeding broad." There is much for us to learn. We don't know everything about the law all at once when we are first converted.

Thanx, Tom, for spelling out clearly what you believe about the law and sinning and rebirth. I don't have any further quesitons for you at this time.

This is from another thread, but it in fact belongs here:

Quote:

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Whether his dissembling was 20 years later or not does not imply he was guilty of it all along. His was a moment of indiscretion, not 20 years of sinning ignorantly.

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“How carefully the Lord worked to overcome the prejudice against the Gentiles that had been so firmly fixed in Peter's mind by his Jewish training! By the vision of the sheet and its contents He sought to divest the apostle's mind of this prejudice and to teach the important truth that in heaven there is no respect of persons; that Jew and Gentile are alike precious in God's sight; that through Christ the heathen may be made partakers of the blessings and privileges of the gospel. {AA 136.3}
“While Peter was meditating on the meaning of the vision, the men sent from Cornelius arrived in Joppa and stood before the gate of his lodginghouse. Then the Spirit said to him, ‘Behold, three men seek thee. Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.’ {AA 136.4}
“To Peter this was a trying command, and it was with reluctance at every step that he undertook the duty laid upon him; but he dared not disobey." {AA 137.1}

Quote:

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That is, was Peter blameless in the eyes of God because he was unaware of his sin?

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Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent,

“God does not deal thus with His creatures. His wrath is never visited upon sins of ignorance. Before His judgments are brought upon the earth, the light in regard to this sin must be presented to the world, that man may know why these judgments are to be inflicted, and may have opportunity to escape them.” {ST, November 1, 1899 par. 7}

“They will not be condemned because they do not know the way, the truth, and the life. The truth that has reached their understanding, the light which has shone on the soul, that has not been cherished, and which they have neglected, or refused to be led by, will condemn them. What more could have been done for God's vineyard than has been done? Light, precious light, shines upon his people; but the light will not save them, unless they consent to be saved by it.” {RH, August 23, 1881 par. 9}

MM: Whether his dissembling was 20 years later or not does not imply he was guilty of it all along. His was a moment of indiscretion, not 20 years of sinning ignorantly. All born again believers possess the potential to slip in and out of sin. But doing so does not constitute an unknown defective trait of character, a fault the Holy Spirit has been unable to bring to their attention. Besides, Peter was well of aware of his wrongdoing. It did not represent an unknown moral imperfection. His fall from grace was consensual.

R: Mike, I replied in the thread "Hidden Character Defects! What?" in the Bible Study section.

MM: My point is that Peter was not ignorant of his lapse of judgment in Antioch. He had long before confessed his “natural prejudice” on the housetop in Joppa, and had declared his conversion in Caesarea at Cornelius’ house. “Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.” (Acts 10:28)

Peter’s fall in Antioch was not the result of an unknown weakness, an unknown defective trait of character, an imperfection the Hoy Spirit had not yet revealed to him. He was fully aware of his wrongdoing. Therefore, we cannot cite his sin as an example of a born again believer sinning ignorantly due to an unknown, unconquered defective trait of character.

Again, there is no such thing as an unknown defective trait of character in born again believers who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. All defects and weaknesses must be confessed before they can experience the miracle of rebirth. This does not mean, however, that born again believers are incapable of committing a known sin. But such subsequent falls do not mean they were ignorant of their sin, or the weaknesses that led to it.

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

MM: My point is that Peter was not ignorant of his lapse of judgment in Antioch. He had long before confessed his “natural prejudice” on the housetop in Joppa, and had declared his conversion in Caesarea at Cornelius’ house. “Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.” (Acts 10:28)

Mike,

I was referring to Joppa, as you can see from the AA passage I quoted. I was speaking from memory. In fact this must have happened some 13-14 years after the crucifixion.

Peter's thoughts and feelings regarding Gentiles before his Joppa experience and education were not the result of unrevealed, unknown moral imperfections or defective traits of character. Instead, they were the result of misinterpreting the Bible. Romans, like Canaanites, were considered beyond hope. Why worry about them? Jesus ordered the OT Jews to eradicate the Canaanites – not to share the gospel with them.

No, Peter’s problem was not a moral one, instead it was a mental one, an educational one. Again, there is no such thing as an unknown defective trait of character in born again believers who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. All defects and weaknesses must be confessed before they can experience the miracle of rebirth. This does not mean, however, that born again believers are incapable of committing a known sin. But such subsequent falls do not mean they were ignorant of their sin, or the weaknesses that led to it.

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

"Every spot" means every defective cultivated trait of character. Nothing is left unrevealed to be learned later on. True, there are certain intellectual errors that may need correcting later on, but the Holy Spirit will not overlook even the least of our moral imperfections during the process of conversion (before we are born again).

Okay, but the quote you posted teaches us that "when" we are born again, when self is crucified our defective traits of character are "dropped out of the life" - not after years of gradually discovering them. It is during the process of conversion, which leads up to rebirth and conversion, that we confess the defects and imperfections brought to our attention for the first time in light of the cross by the Holy Spirit. When we complete this process then we are born again.

Please note the when-then relationship described in the following quotes, the amazing grace contrast before and after rebirth:

“Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character.” (6T 95)

“There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” (1 S&T 246)

“When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun.” (FLB 117)

“When He gives you the mind of Christ, your will becomes as His will, and your character is transformed to be like Christ’s character.” (5T 515)

“When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new.” (TMK 247)

“When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.” (COL 311)

“When true conversion takes place in the heart, it is made manifest in a transformation of character, for those who are converted become Christlike.” (TMK 62)

“You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart. Then believe that He does this because He has promised.” (SC 49)

“We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ.” (5T 47)

“But Jesus was ever presenting before them that these [defective traits of character] must be given up, emptied from the soul, that he might implant a new nature therein.” (RH 10-5-1897)

“Your self-esteem will be hurt, your high opinion of yourself will be cut away by the ax and the hammer, and the roughness of your character will be smoothed off; and when self and carnal propensities are worked away, then the stone will assume proper proportions for the heavenly building, and then the polishing, refining, subduing, burnishing processes will begin, and you will be molded after the model of Christ’s character.” (YI 1-3-1895)

“The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian’s life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit.” (DA 172)

“By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God; a patient, protracted process.” (DA 172)

“When the Spirit of God takes possession of the heart, it transforms the life. Sinful thoughts are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife. Joy takes the place of sadness, and the countenance reflects the light of heaven. No one sees the hand that lifts the burden, or beholds the light descend from the courts above. The blessing comes when by faith the soul surrenders itself to God. Then that power which no human eye can see creates a new being in the image of God.” (DA 173)

“The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, ‘I delight to do Thy will, O my God.’” (DA 176)

“All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.” (COL 330)

“When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.” (DA 676)

“New faculties are not supplied, but a thorough change is made in the employment of those faculties. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives are implanted. But while every faculty is regenerated, man does not lose his identity.” (TDG 186)

“The appetites and passions must be held in subjection to the higher powers of the mind.” (CC 271) “Those who overcome will follow the example of Christ by bringing bodily appetites and passions under the control of enlightened conscience and reason.” (CON 74)

“The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual.” (4T 429)

“When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.” (6 BC 1101)

“Communion with God imparts to the soul an intimate knowledge of His will. But many who profess the faith know not what true conversion is. They have no experience in communion with the Father through Jesus Christ, and have never felt the power of divine grace to sanctify the heart. Praying and sinning, sinning and praying, their lives are full of malice, deceit, envy, jealousy, and self-love. The prayers of this class are an abomination to God.” (4T 534)

Mike, I haven't read all the many pages that constitute this thread, and don't plan on doing so. But I am well acquainted with your views on instant character perfection upon conversion.

Let me ask you this -- have you never run an SOP search using phrases such as "character defects," "defects of character," and the like? EGW wrote many times about and to people who had character flaws that were unknown to them, and these were people who had been converted SDAs for many years. So according to God's prophet, your views on this subject cannot be correct.

Furthermore, I've seen you talk about how you've attained to moral perfection, in keeping with your views; but Sis. White again wrote repeatedly about people who make such claims. She said that those who lay claim to religious perfection of any kind are really the ones who are the farthest from it. Those who draw the closest to God are those who most deeply feel their unworthiness. Such truly holy people would never claim to be perfect, morally or in any other way.

I could post many quotations here in support of what I'm saying, but I think it might be more fruitful if you'd run the searches and discover these things for yourself.