No, it is not possible to indulge the desires of the flesh without the thoughts and feelings being selfish. The error against which I most vehemently disagree is the idea that a man can remain pure while his thoughts and feelings are sinful and selfish, so long as he can keep his body from fulfilling the wicked desires of his corrupt heart. The corrupt heart is corrupt in itself, regardless of the motions of the body.


No, one cannot be tempted in every WAY newborn believers are unless he also battle the powers and passions of unregenerate nature. The SOP tells us this: He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. {AA 476.3} That is what newborn believers must face.

However, we are not told that Jesus was tempted in this WAY. He was tempted in all POINTS as we are, but not in all WAYS. I can almost guarantee that He was never tempted to go to the prom on a Friday night, like I was. More importantly, I am sure that His nature would have recoiled at the thought of such evil, while my nature was enamored.

Would you have us believe that Jesus was not pure and sinless, or that He had an unregenerate nature at some point?


That quote is a pretty good explanation of what I mean. Inward selfishness is selfishness that is not on the outside. It is inward sin.


At the crown. But from the cross to the crown, there is wrestling against outward wrong and inbred sin.

At what point in Christ's walk did He have "selfishness and inward sins"? And at what point was He set free from these?

Yes. But sinful flesh nature isn't a sentient being. It can tempt us to sin, but it cannot sin itself. Thus, even though it is condemned, it cannot incur guilt. Guilt is the fruit of sinning.

By the way, do you agree with the rest of the post? Namely, do you agree sinful flesh tempts us with unholy thoughts and feelings and that we do not incur guilt or condemnation so long as we refuse to indulge its sinful desires?

What do you mean by "corrupt heart" and "motions of the body". Newborn believers are born again with a new heart, mind, and nature complete with new tastes, motives, desires, and tendencies. The unholy thoughts and feelings that come to mind are temptations, and like any other temptation they must be resisted. If resisted unto the honor and glory of God, no guilt or contamination is incurred. The origin of such unholy thoughts and feelings is sinful flesh nature - not the mind and heart of the newborn believer.


But you were born again with a "new nature", a "nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." You are also a "partaker of the divine nature." What practical difference does it make if the temptation to attend prom on Friday night originates with sinful flesh nature or evil angels?

Yes, I believe Jesus' human nature was burdened with "sinful flesh" the same as you and me. It warred against Him in the same way it wars against us. Do you think Jesus was ever tempted to do something evil? Or, do you think He was only tempted to do something good at the wrong time?


What is the origin of such selfishness? Does it originate with the new nature, mind, and heart Jesus implants within newborn believers? Or, does it originate with sinful flesh nature?


By "at the crown" do you mean when Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless nature and body? If so, do you envision believers experiencing selfish and sin-stained fruits of the Spirit until the day Jesus arrives? Do you believe "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" describes "the fruit of the Spirit"? Ellen wrote:


Do you think the passages above describe "the fruit of the Spirit"?


Jesus took upon Him sinful flesh nature at His incarnation with all its evil, unholy desires. His fallen human nature tempted Him from within to indulge His innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. He resisted them from the moment of consciousness to the day He died. He was free of it in the sense He never acted out its unholy desires. But in another sense He was free of it the day He was resurrected without it.

So, you're saying that it is condemned, though it is guiltless. Does God condemn the guiltless? I don't think so.

If guilt is only the fruit of sinning, then how is it that Adam can give us guilt as an inheritance? Do we also inherit "sinning"?


I agree that if we are tempted by the lusts of our own sinful natures and we shun it immediately, we do not incur guilt in the sense that such lusts are unavoidable deficiencies that Jesus covers. I do not believe that such fleshly lusts are holy and righteous fruits of the Spirit. They are sinful and need atonement by Christ's blood.

And neither is the flesh a sentient being. So, if the non-sentient sinful flesh nature tempts the non-sentient flesh to commit some evil act, is there no guilt incurred, since none of the parties involved are sentient?

My father says this happens to him all the time. His sinful nature gets his body to do some rather nasty things, while his new, spiritual nature objects and wants to be holy the whole time. And afterwards, his new, spiritual nature is always very sad about the incident, and therefore remains perfectly acceptable to God. Do you buy his story?

We are not guilty of sinning in Eden. We need not repent of Adam's sin. "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Eze 18:20)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10) "So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." (Rom 14:12) Do you think "sinful flesh" will "appear before the judgment seat of Christ" to "give account of himself to God"? If not, why not?

All have sinned in Adam and all have been forgiven in Jesus. Therefore, all begin, as it were, with a blank slate. Thus, all will be judged according to their own words and works - not according to Adam's sin or the sins of anyone else. Ellen wrote:


"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18) We must choose to be saved, otherwise, we are condemned to death by default. Our eternal destiny is based on the character we form in this lifetime. "The character as formed in this world determines one’s destiny for eternity." {CTr 188.3}


What do you mean by "unavoidable deficiencies"?

What is the difference between "lusts of the flesh" and "fruit of the Spirit"?

In what sense does Jesus atone for the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh?

What is the difference between "sinful flesh nature" and "the flesh"? Ellen wrote:


Aren't "sinful flesh nature" and "the flesh" one and the same thing?

Also, it sounds like your father interprets "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" in a way that allows him to blame sinning on his flesh. So, no, I don't "buy his story". Neither am I convinced of your story. I'm not ready to buy the idea that God counts me guilty and condemned because my fallen flesh tempts me to indulge my innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. Nor am I ready to buy the idea that the righteous results of abiding of Jesus are selfish and sin-stained because my fallen flesh nature clamors for sinful expression.

PS - Please address the other questions and comments in my post. Thank you.

I'm not saying that we must repent for what he did. But we must repent for what we are. Selfishness is sin and needs repentance and atonement, even if we don't "do" it.

If a person is selfish, depraved, and lustful, does he need to repent and be born again if he's only like this in the privacy of his own mind?

Yes, cherishing selfish and sinful thoughts and feelings in the privacy of one's own mind requires repentance, pardon, and atonement. But if we don't "do it", that is if we don't cherish them or act them out in words or deeds we do not incur guilt or condemnation. The sinful, selfish thoughts and feelings that come to mind via sinful flesh are nothing more than temptations. It is not a sin to be tempted. We need not repent because we are tempted. The idea that being tempted from within via sinful flesh causes corruption is unbiblical. Where in the Bible is such an idea articulated?

PS - I look forward to you responding to the rest of the comments and questions above. Thank you.

Bump.