TE: He doesn't reveal the truth to us in doses that would result in our death.

MM: So darkness and ignorance is bliss?

This is how you understand the idea that God mercifully reveals truth to us only to the degree that we are willing and able to respond to it? You do realize that this idea is direct from the Spirit of Prophecy, don't you?

TE: If we lived less, we would suffer less. Is that what you're asking?

MM: Sort of. More specifically, though, none of us would have to suffer for more than one sin if God allowed sin to run its natural course, right? Which means God is responsible for the suffering sinners will experience in the lake of fire above and beyond the first sin, right?

To the same extent that God is responsible for sin at all, since He created invidividuals who sin. It seems twisted to me to blame this on God, however.

TE: No, God is not obligated by anybody or anything.

MM: Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed.

Justice is no more capable of acting on its own than the law. "Justice" or "the law" are simply concepts; they are not sentient beings! God is a Being who exercises His will. If "justice" demands that sin not merely be pardoned, but the death penalty executed, then this simply means that God demands that sin not merely be pardoned, but that the death pentalty be executed.

God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. Do you agree?

Not in the way you do. I don't believe that God is being driven by forces outside of Himself, as you seem to, by your means of expressing yourself.

I believe that God so loved the world that He gave His Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. God was motivated by love, not obligated by law.

The law is a transcript of God's character. It reveals His will; it does not create it.

TE: No!!! It is because their good works were in harmony with ALL TEN commandments. As you mentioned, it's one law. The WHOLE law is summed up by the principle, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

MM: Tom, do you believe the heathens she wrote about kept the seventh-day sabbath holy?

Do you believe the whole law is summed up by the principle, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"?

TE: The WHOLE law is summed up by the principle, "Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself."

MM: The first four of the Ten Commandments are summed up in the one great precept, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart." The last six are included in the other, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Do you agree?

TE: Your idea does not exist in either Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy.

MM: Tom, I strongly disagree.

Then produce some evidence for your view. Where does either Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy suggest that the first four commandments are "mental" whereas the last six are "moral"?

There are people who will be in heaven who never knew the law of God, or the son of God. There is no way they could have obeyed the first four commandments under such circumstances.

No one will be saved who transgresses the law. The doers of the law will be justified.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Rev. 22:14, 15)

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9,10)

No idolater will enter heaven. That's in the first group of four.

MM, where, in either Scripture or the Spirit or Prophecy, does it teach that anyone who transgresses the first four commandments will be in heaven?

But their works testify as to whether or not they lived in harmony with the last six commandments – the golden rule.

One is not saved by living in harmony with only six commandments. That's not a Scriptural view. There is not evidence for this idea.

Jesus can safely take them to heaven because He knows that they would have lived in harmony with the first four commandments had they known about them.

There's no basis for this idea in inspiration either. NEVER does either Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy state that God decides the fate of someone based on something they *would* have done. This is a completely groundless assertion. You cannot produce one statement that says anything other than that a person will be judged based on their actual works, not on what they might have done.

“Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.”

By the way, what do you think I mean by the labels mental and moral sins?

By "mental" you mean sins of igonrance. By "moral" you mean sin which are not sins of ignorance. If you stuck to these meanings (and better yet, stuck to these phrases, which everyone knows and understands the meaning of), without introducing the idea about the last six commandments being something which people know instictively whereas the first four aren't, there wouldn't be any problem. The difficult comes when you introduce theories which have no basis in inspiration, and are contrary to reason as well.

MM: Tom, do you believe the heathens she wrote about kept the seventh-day sabbath holy?

TE: Do you believe the whole law is summed up by the principle, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"? … No one will be saved who transgresses the law. The doers of the law will be justified.

MM: Why did Jesus say, On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Also, do you believe the heathens Sister White wrote about in DA 638 kept holy the seventh-day sabbath? If not, do you believe they will be saved? If so, why?

Matthew
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

TE: If "justice" demands that sin not merely be pardoned, but the death penalty executed, then this simply means that God demands that sin not merely be pardoned, but that the death pentalty be executed.

MM: Okay, then, but do you believe God demanded in addition to pardon that the death penalty be executed upon Christ as our substitute, and that His death satisfies both requirements (i.e., pardon and death)?

MM: By the way, what do you think I mean by the labels mental and moral sins?

TE: By "mental" you mean sins of igonrance. By "moral" you mean sin which are not sins of ignorance.

MM: Right.

TE: Here, for example, you write, "Since I do not believe it is possible to unknowingly or ignorantly cultivate traits of character that violate the last six commandments ..." and then reason from there. This shouldn't be your starting point! Your starting point should be on the basis of evidence, such as Scripture.

MM: The starting point is based on the Bible and the SOP. It’s just that you disagree. What distinction, if any, do you make between sins of ignorance and sinful traits of character cultivated wilfully and knowingly?

It has been postulated that the Holy Spirit does not reveal to us all of our defects and imperfections during the process of conversion, before we are converted and born again, that He waits to reveal certain types of defects and imperfection until sometime later, after we are born again.

In light of the following quote, which defects and imperfections does the Holy Spirit wait to reveal to born again believers until they are ready to overcome them?

“One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.” SC 29)

“When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new.” (TMK 247)

“There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” (1 S&T 246)

“He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory.” (AA 476)

“Every day hereditary tendencies to wrong will strive for the mastery. Every day you are to war against your objectionable traits of character, until there are left in you none of those things which need to be separated from you. Then you will think candidly and wisely how to take yourself to the Lord. You will foresee the evils which will come unless you change by avoiding the cause which produces the effect.” (6MR 84)

“The work of redemption involves consequences of which it is difficult for man to have any conception. ‘Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.’ 1 Cor. 2:9. As the sinner, drawn by the power of Christ, approaches the uplifted cross, and prostrates himself before it, there is a new creation. A new heart is given him. He becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus. Holiness finds that it has nothing more to require. God Himself is ‘the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.’ Rom. 3:26. And ‘whom He justified, them He also glorified.’ Rom. 8:30. Great as is the shame and degradation through sin, even greater will be the honor and exaltation through redeeming love. To human beings striving for conformity to the divine image there is imparted an outlay of heaven’s treasure, an excellency of power, that will place them higher than even the angels who have never fallen.” (COL 162)

“The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.” (6 BC 1101)

“Communion with God imparts to the soul an intimate knowledge of His will. But many who profess the faith know not what true conversion is. They have no experience in communion with the Father through Jesus Christ, and have never felt the power of divine grace to sanctify the heart. Praying and sinning, sinning and praying, their lives are full of malice, deceit, envy, jealousy, and self-love. The prayers of this class are an abomination to God.” (4T 534)

“Often the question arises, Why, then, are there so many, claiming to believe God’s word, in whom there is not seen a reformation in words, in spirit, and in character? Why are there so many who cannot bear opposition to their purposes and plans, who manifest an unholy temper, and whose words are harsh, overbearing, and passionate? There is seen in their lives the same love of self, the same selfish indulgence, the same temper and hasty speech, that is seen in the life of the worldling. There is the same sensitive pride, the same yielding to natural inclination, the same perversity of character, as if the truth were wholly unknown to them. The reason is that they are not converted. They have not hidden the leaven of truth in the heart. It has not had opportunity to do its work. Their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been submitted to its transforming power. Their lives reveal the absence of the grace of Christ, an unbelief in His power to transform the character.” (COL 99, 100)

“Many are sensible of their great deficiency, and they read, and pray, and resolve, and yet make no progress. They seem to be powerless to resist temptation. The reason is, they do not go deep enough. They do not seek for a thorough conversion of the soul, that the streams which issue from it may be pure, and the deportment may testify that Christ reigns within. All defects of character originate in the heart. Pride, vanity, evil temper, and covetousness proceed from the carnal heart unrenewed by the grace of Christ. If the heart is refined, softened, and ennobled, the words and actions will testify to the fact. When the soul has been entirely surrendered to God, there will be a firm reliance upon His promises, and earnest prayer and determined effort to control the words and actions.” (OHC 336)

“Many who profess to follow Christ have not genuine religion. They do not reveal in their lives the fruit of true conversion. They are controlled by the same habits, the same spirit of fault-finding and selfishness, which controlled them before they accepted Christ. No one can enter the city of God who has not a knowledge of genuine conversion. In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within.” (RH 7-30-1901)

"You are in the greatest danger of bringing reproach upon the cause of God. Satan knows your weakness. His angels communicate your weak points to those who are deceived by his lying wonders, and they are already counting you as one of their number. Satan exults to have you pursue an unwise course because you place yourself upon his ground and give him advantage over you. He well knows that the indiscretion of men who advocate the law of God will turn souls from the truth. You have not taken upon your soul the burden of the work and labored carefully and earnestly in private to favorably impress minds in regard to the truth. You too frequently become impatient, irritable, and childish, and make yourself enemies by your abrupt manners. Unless you are on your guard, you prejudice souls against the truth. Unless you are a transformed man, and will carry out in your life the principles of the sacred truths you present in the desk, your labors will amount to but little. {3T 241, 242)

Rosangela, one ribbon of light seeping through a small opening would only illuminate a small area.

R: David and Solomon had the law of God. Why were they polygamous? Slavery is a transgression of the law of God. Why did the early Christians have slaves?

MM: Are you suggesting that 1) they were guilty of intentionally sinning? that they were guilty of cultivating defective traits of character?

2. Or, were they sinning ignorantly? And, if so, were they also guilty of cultivating defective traits of character.

3. Is it possible to ignorantly cultivate a defective trait of character? Or, is character the result of conscious and informed and repetitious choices?

4. Is there such a thing as innocent defective traits of character?

Also, regarding the affects of “one ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ” once it penetrates the soul: I have a few questions –

5. What types of defects and deformities escape unnoticed? Which ones does the Holy Spirit wait to reveal until sometime after rebirth? And why?

“One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.” SC 29)