Yes, people do lose some ground and momentum when they sin. But just how much ground and momentum is lost when they sin is the question. In the case of Moses, do you think his sin caused him to lose so much ground and momentum that it took "many days of sorrowful search to find Him, and regain the peace that we have lost"?

How much ground and momentum one loses when he sins is, without the benefit of omniscience, impossible to quantify for even a single case. But let's take a look at Moses' case, and see if we can learn something, even qualitatively.

Did he take many days to repent? No, Moses turned from his sin immediately and God was right there to receive him. This is one of the quickest cases of repentance we have on record, I believe.

What about regaining his peace? Well, he was told that he was not going into the Promised Land. He had been working toward this for decades, suffering much hardship in the process. Now, because of a momentary lapse, a lapse that few would have avoided if placed in the same position, he was not going to see come to fruition. How long do you think it took before he was at peace with that disappointment? I would guess longer than a few moments.

But he was allowed to see the Promised Land, and even got a prophetic glimpse of Christ's life. So it wasn't all bad. But the alternative was so much better:
He would have been translated! But instead, we have this reality as a preface to what could have been:
However, Moses spent but a short time in the grave. Christ and his angels soon came to claim Moses' body, to be resurrected to glory. So it wasn't all bad.

But what about those he left behind? Here is Moses described by inspiration:
Could the Israelites have benefited from a little more of that leadership? Joshua was a fine leader, but I doubt he was better than Moses. Might the defeat at Ai been averted had Moses been around? How about the treaty with the Gibeonites?

What if Moses had been translated in the eyes of the Israelites? Instead of seeing the wages of sin, they could have seen the reward of faithfulness. Could that have helped strengthen the Israelites' faith as they conquered Canaan? Would they have been more inclined to trust in God's power to save, rather than fearing the iron chariots of men?

Yes, Moses' case turned out OK. But a little thought shows that it could have been so much better. Even if he did not lose much ground and momentum, his presence could have helped others gain ground and momentum. IOW, a lot of people lost ground and momentum because of his sin.

And all this from one of the best cases of repentance on record. Who is to say that the next time you sin you will repent as fast as Moses did? Who is to say that you will not lose your peace for many days? Who is to say that you will not lose your way completely as did Demas, Paul's backslidden helper?

It is not safe to dally with sin. Moses' one sin resulted in great loss to the cause of God. We have no reason to think that our sins will turn out as well as Moses' sin.

Some may wish to believe that little sins will not cause great personal and collateral damage. I do not believe that. All sins crucify Jesus afresh.

Arnold, I agree with you 100%. Thank you.

I'm happy to see that. It is a rare occasion when two people agree 100% on anything here. It's nice to experience now and then.

It also appears we agree overcoming is not only possible but necessary. I'm curious if we agree on the definition of overcoming. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." To overcome, therefore, means to successfully resist sinning just like Jesus did. It does not include sinning and repenting.

We probably agree there. But rather than saying overcoming is "necessary" I prefer to say it is "inevitable." I see overcoming as a fruit, not a root.


Yes and no.

We overcome using the same method that Jesus did: relying on divine power. Humanity, especially fallen humanity, is no match for the power of self, sin, and Satan. But humanity combined with divinity does not sin.

However, since we have all sinned, our performance will never equal Jesus' performance. He could live under the law and meet its requirements. We must live under grace in order to meet the law's requirements. Our overcoming is similar to His, but not identical.

Furthermore, since we are selfish by nature and Jesus was not, we are naturally attracted to evil things that Jesus recoiled from. We like evil, but He did not. Therefore, while we like sinful things, He was tempted by things that were not inherently sinful (such as the natural beauty of God's creation). Of course, we can grow to be like that, but that's not how we are naturally.


Well, it did not for Jesus. But it certainly starts out that way for us. We continue to repent of ignorant sins that the Holy Spirit reveals to us. We also continue to confess the sinfulness of our natures.

I'm guessing we don't agree on some of the things I mentioned.

Yes, we disagree on some of the things you wrote. But we're dealing with them on other threads. Jesus did not come in the likeness of sinners who have not yet experienced rebirth. Instead, He came in the likeness of believers who have 1) experienced rebirth, who have 2) received the "new nature" with all its "new" traits and attributes, who are 3) partaking of the divine nature, and who are, thereby, 4) being empowered to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan, and, more importantly, are 5) being empowered to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

Do you believe "overcoming" as Jesus "overcame" includes maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, cultivating sinless traits of character more and more perfectly? If so, then I disagree. I believe it refers specifically to recognizing and resisting temptations, namely, temptations from within and from without. By saying "from within" I mean the fact sinful flesh tempts people from within to satisfy their innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. What do you think?

Bump for Arnold.

This will have to wait for a bit, like the LGT thread. Sorry.

We overcome by surrender
Romans 6:16
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:19
(19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.


When we surrender daily to God He works in us
Philippians 2:13
(13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.