Well, the one you call a sock puppet said 139 times the same as the Bible - that God knows the end from the beginning. She also said:

“In past ages the Lord God of heaven revealed His secrets to His prophets, and this He does still. The present and the future are equally clear to Him, and He shows to His servants the future history of what shall be. The Omniscient looked down the ages, and predicted through His prophets the rise and fall of kingdoms, hundreds of years before the events foretold took place. The voice of God echoes down the ages, telling man what is to take place. Kings and princes take their places at their appointed time. They think they are carrying out their own purposes, but in reality they are fulfilling the word God has given through His prophets. They act their part in carrying out God's great purposes. Events fall into line, fulfilling the word God has spoken.” {UL 96.2}

"Ages before His incarnation, Christ distinctly chose His position. He foresaw His life of humiliation, His rejection and crucifixion, His victory over satanic agencies, His victory over death and the grave. He saw the world flooded with light and life, and heard the song of triumph sung by the millions rescued from the hold of Satan." {1NL 41.7}

Does God know the end from the beginning or doesn't He?
Or do you think that EGW contradicted herself? But if you think that she contradicted herself, you cannot believe that she was God's sock puppet. Which is it?


EGW says they were right about the date and wrong about the event, and that even this was predicted in the Bible. So?


Sorry, I didn't see where you showed me that Christ had foul desires that He yearned to act out. Now, I showed you that EGW said the foul desire is sin. Where is your answer to that?


Well, EGW says that "the plans of God cannot fail" (YI, September 1, 1892 par. 5). What you are saying is that the plan of salvation could fail and that she is contradicting herself?


Does the Bible say that His temptations were real or that they were a farce?

She contrasts Adam's posterity with Christ. She says Adam's posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience, but that Christ was the only begotten Son of God, and that not for one moment was there in Him a sinful propensity. IOW, He was different from the moment He was born. I don't think this is the same as what you said. Who reigned in His human nature and forced it to live in harmony with the principles of God's law while He was a baby?


First comes the perversion of character, then the sinful act. Before you sin, you must first choose selfishness instead of love. Although it could be said that the moment you choose selfishness you are already sinning (i. e., the perversion of character is in itself a sin).


I refer to conscious acts/thoughts of sin, not to our sinful nature. Those who will be living during the time of trouble won't sin (this doesn't mean they will be without sin).


I think the answer would be the same as above.

Then why did Sock Puppet affirm that Christ COULD HAVE lost his salvation....
...When the Bible says that Christ could NOT HAVE lost His salvation?
...For what you are saying to be true BOTH can't be true.






Then what do you do with the the following?


Sock Puppet
Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could NOT have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. . . . In man's behalf, Christ conquered by enduring the severest test. For our sake He exercised a self-control stronger than hunger or death.--The Desire of Ages, p. 117. {7ABC



Sock Puppet
The new tomb enclosed Him in its rocky chambers. IF one single sin had tainted His character the stone would never have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished

Now Rosangela - do you have to exercise self control to refrain from robbing banks at gun or sword point?
...Do you exercise "self control" to keep from molesting children?

I'm not saying THOSE sins are "IN YOU" so that you would feel the yearning or pulling of those temptations however if you honestly believe Sock Puppet Christ would have felt the PULL OF EVERY SIN EVERY PERSON has had - so that he can succor those with the SAME TEMPTATIONS.

You should read James a little closer as well.

James 1,14
But EVERY man is tempted, WHEN he is drawn away of his OWN lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

You realize Rosangela that YOU can indeed be tempted but if there is NOTHING inside of you that already lusts for the temptation you do not have to RESIST because you don't have the urge. i.e. you are tempted when YOU are drawn away of YOUR OWN lust.

If someone walks up to you and tempts you to hold a kid down so the both of you can molest it....
...You have been TEMPTED - if you are not a child molester you will be disgusted.
...Therefore because you don't YEARN for that sin you don't have to RESIST your own pulling toward it.
...A for real pedophile will see it differently than you.

So - was Christ REALLY tempted like you and I.....
...So it could be said He DENIED his desires, felt the pull.
...OR, like the Apostate churches claim in each case He felt as you would with the pedophile thing?

Think before you answer this because I have a whale sized list of quotes from Sock Puppet.




You need to look at your logic again...
...Sister White was EXPLICIT Jesus could have failed.
...Even after God said through the prophets he would NOT.
...So what is it - Do you believe the prophets of the Bible buttered up prophecy.
...Or do you believe they were in error when they said Christ would not fail?






AFTER-THE-FACT she said that...
...No one could know of the event being wrong when it wasn't even discovered for years AFTER the advertisted event.




Read James 1 and apply Sock Puppet's affirmation that Jesus had to RESIST temptations pulling on him.....
...Then ask yourself if you every denied your urge to molest a child.
...Get back to me on that.





See above.

I'll ask you something - did God know He was going to deliver the three hebrews from the burning fiery furnace? Yes or No?


This makes no sense at all. Christ had to be tried to the uttermost, but not with the same sins we are. Could Christ be tempted by specifically feminine sins? Of course not; He was a man. Then how can He help women? Christ's temptations were so stronger than ours that we don't even understand what was involved in them. But He didn't need to have foul desires in order to experience that. Have you ever spent 40 days without eating? Have you ever seen Satan face to face? Have you ever been to a cross having the power to come down from it? If not, don't tell me the foul desires of human beings are stronger than that, and that sinners can have a more trying conflict than had Christ.


Really? How then were angels tempted? How were Adam and Eve tempted?
Of course temptation always appeals to a desire - however, it doesn't have to be a foul desire. Look at Christ's temptations - I don't see any foul desire in them.


Then answer my question about the three hebrews.


Ceph, EGW said the foul desire is sin. How do you explain that?


You didn't answer this, but there is no real temptation if there is no possibility of failure. So, does the Bible portray Christ's temptations as real or as a farce?

I believe He did and from what I know Sister White never said...
...Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego could have burned and could have eternally cease to exist.
...Like she said creature christ could have.



I've already shown you the bible text that says we are ONLY tempted....
...WHEN we are drawn toward what we ALREADY lust for.
...Any number of people and situtations can offer temptation.
...But we are ONLY tempted when we are drawn toward a thing by our OWN LUST.

So, do you want to rethink your position here or re-state your question in any way...
...You're not making any sense at all.

Sock Puppet, Signs of the Times, March 30, 1904. {RC 37.6}Living the life of the Saviour, "overcoming every selfish desire", fulfilling bravely and cheerfully our duty to God and to those around us--this makes us more than conquerors. This prepares us to stand before the great white throne free from spot or wrinkle, having washed our robes of character, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb

Sock Puppet,BEcho, January 1, 1893 par. 3}
Will man take hold of this divine power which has been placed within his reach, and with determination and perseverance resist Satan, as Christ has given example in his conflict with the foe in the wilderness of temptation? God cannot save man against his will from the power of Satan's artifices. Man must work with his human power, aided by the divine power of Christ, to resist and to conquer at any cost to himself. In short, man must overcome as Christ overcame. Christ was a perfect overcomer; and we must be perfect, wanting nothing, without spot or blemish


Christ took upon Himself the infirmities AND sins of the flesh but to every sin He died, every lust He crucified, every selfish desire He denied himself and all for our sakes". Sabbath school 1923 #112

To every what He died?

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin

You can't die to sin if you are ALREADY dead in sin.




Angels, God and Christ all had bodies of "flesh"....
...This is the meaning of the Pioneer & Sock Puppet phrase; PERSONALITY OF GOD.
...If you wouldn't call going to war against God treason and foul I shudder to think what you would call foul.



Already did.




Simple, Sock Puppet said it's only when we follow through with temptation that it becomes sin....
...There is NO OTHER WAY Jesus could have died to his sins.

All the quotes I posted made it abundantly clear people are born-again with a new nature. "It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." Again, Ellen wrote:


Jesus enables us "to resist and subdue the tendencies of our fallen nature". It is "to be kept under the control of the Spirit of God". He also transforms our "weak, sinful nature into the divine image, giving it beauty and perfection". It is "purified, ennobled, consecrated by obedience to the truth". This is the sinful, human nature Jesus took upon His sinless, divine nature. In this state He was able to render acceptable and pleasing obedience. The same is true of believers. "In their fallen nature people can do the very things God expects them to do through the help provided for them." You seem to think, No, they cannot.


If it isn't possible to "pervert" character without sinning, then your earlier premise is incorrect.


What is the difference between "won't sin" and "doesn't mean they will be without sin"? Also, what is the difference between "sinful flesh nature" and "sinful human nature"?


Is having defective traits of character the same thing as acting them out in sinful ways - the same thing as sinning? Is there a difference between cultivated sinful traits of character and hereditary sinful, fallen human nature?

Of course not. But she said their lives were at stake (RH, May 3, 1892 par. 9). So, Ellen White said that their lives were at stake, but God knew He would deliver them. Here risk and foreknowledge are perfectly compatible.
And by the way. The Bible doesn’t say that Christ COULD not fail, but that He WOULD not fail.


And I’ve already said that of course temptation always appeals to a desire - however, it doesn't have to be a foul desire. There’s no foul desire in eating bread when you are hungry (1st temptation), in proving to others that you are who you say you are (2nd temptation), or in achieving that which you came to achieve (3d temptation). The problem is in doing that within God’s will. If you can’t do that, then your legitimate desire becomes a selfish desire, and the selfish desire is sin.


Satan appealed to legitimate desires when he tempted unfallen creatures – again, desires which would become selfish if satisfied in opposition to the will of God. He promised them a higher state of existence, and this is good, unless you have to go against God’s will to achieve it. So, the temptation first appealed to their sanctified ambition. When they realized this desire could only be met if they went against God’s will, and they didn’t renounce their desire, it became covetousness, which, of course, is a sin.


Wrong. She didn’t say that. She said the selfish desire itself is sin – even before it grows into an act.

"The tenth commandment strikes at the very root of all sins, prohibiting the selfish desire, from which springs the sinful act. He who in obedience to God's law refrains from indulging even a sinful desire for that which belongs to another will not be guilty of an act of wrong toward his fellow creatures." {PP 309.5}

Yes, and, as you said, Jesus enables us "to resist and subdue the tendencies of our fallen nature". But, again, who reigned in Christ's human nature and forced it to live in harmony with the principles of God's law while He was a baby?
And what does EGW mean with the following passage?

But here we must not become in our ideas common and earthly, and in our perverted ideas we must not think that the liability of Christ to yield to Satan's temptations degraded His humanity and He possessed the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man. {16MR 182.2}

My earlier premise was that someone who has a perfect character doesn't sin. Why is it incorrect?


We will only be without sin when we have a new nature. Selfishness may be subdued, but it is within us, and "selfishness is sin."


Not the same thing; one is voluntary, the other isn't. But, as I said above, selfishness is sin.

That's what I've been telling you how many times?

Sock Puppet
Living the life OF the Saviour, overcoming every SELFISH desire, fulfilling bravely and cheerfully our duty to God and to those around us,—this makes us more than conquerors. This prepares us to stand before the great white throne free from spot or wrinkle, having washed our robes of character, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb

Signs of the Times , August 14 1893
1. Suffered in the flesh.—Christ took upon himself the infirmities and sins of the flesh (Heb. 2 :14; 4 :15 ; 2 Cor. 5: 21); but to every sin he died ; every lust he crucified ; every SELFISH desire he denied himself[/B]; and all for our sakes. We are to reckon ourselves dead unto sin (Rom. 6 :11), to put to death the passions and sins of the flesh (Rom. 8 :12, 13 ; Gal. 5 : 24), to deny ourselves (Matt. 16: 24), to renounce all nnd follow him (Luke 14 : 33). Thus, dying to sin, in Christ \ve cease from sin and live unto God. Rom. 6:11; 7:4. This death to sin is in a sense instantaneous when the soul by faith yields all to God and accepts of Christ's death for his death and Christ's life for his life. Rom. 6: 3-7.