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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13940
06/01/05 02:58 AM
06/01/05 02:58 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Some statements regarding the tree of life from the SOP:
"Must we wait until we are translated before we eat of the leaves of the tree of life? He who receives into his heart the words of Christ knows that it means to eat the leaves of the tree of life...
The knowledge that comes from God is the bread of life. It is the leaves of the tree of life which are for the healing of the nations. The current of spiritual life thrills the soul as the words of Christ are believed and practiced. Thus it is that we are made one with Christ. The experience that was weak and feeble becomes strong. It is eternal life to us if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end. (The Upward Look 224)"
"They will eat freely of it as our first parents did before their fall. (Maranatha 325)"
The last one makes the point that Adam and Eve ate of the tree of life. So eating of it does not unconditionally cause one to live forever.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13941
06/02/05 02:20 AM
06/02/05 02:20 AM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
Tom: Neither Rom. 5:9 nor 1 Thes. 1:10 speaks of the "wrath of God" (it just says "wrath").
Tom, whose wrath is it?
Tom and Ikan,
Of course I agree that sin brings mental misery, pain and suffering. But suppose the physical effects of sin are eliminated. Is sin still lethal in itself? About the tree of life. Yes, man had to continually partake of it to perpetuate his life. That’s why God barred the access to it after sin. But Ellen White makes clear that man could have become an immortal sinner by continuing to partake of it. Could it counteract the physical effects of sin? Probably. Now let’s analyze Satan’s case. Satan doesn’t have to partake of any tree to have his life perpetuated. God made angels in such a way that they can live forever. Sin has no physical effect upon them. The only way they can die is if God ceases to impart life to them (which is the same as removing their lives or killing them). Sin is the reason why evil angels will die (and in this sense it is lethal), but what will cause their death is the wrath of God. If God didn’t manifest His wrath (or chose another form of removing their lives), they would never die.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13942
06/01/05 05:10 PM
06/01/05 05:10 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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R: Tom: Neither Rom. 5:9 nor 1 Thes. 1:10 speaks of the "wrath of God" (it just says "wrath"). Tom, whose wrath is it? T: To answer this question, let me start with a quote from E. J. Waggoner regarding Romans. 3:21-26: quote:
A Propitiation. A propitiation is a sacrifice. The statement then is simply that Christ is set forth to be a sacrifice for the remission of our sins. "Once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Heb. 9:26. Of course the idea of a propitiation or sacrifice is that there is wrath to be appeased. But take particular notice that it is we who require the sacrifice, and not God. He provides the sacrifice. The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible.
It is the height of absurdity to say that God is so angry with men that he will not forgive them unless something is provided to appease his wrath, and that therefore he himself offers the gift to himself, by which he is appeased. "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death." Col. 1:21, 22.
Heathen and Christian Propitiation. The Christian idea of propitiation is that set forth above. The heathen idea, which is too often held by professed Christians, is that men must provide a sacrifice to appease the wrath of their god. All heathen worship is simply a bribe to their gods to be favourable to them. If they thought that their gods were very angry with them, they would provide a greater sacrifice, and so human sacrifices were offered in extreme cases. They thought, as the worshipers of Siva in India do to-day, that their god was gratified by the sight of blood.
The persecution that was carried on in so-called Christian countries in times past and is to some extent even now, is but the outcropping of this heathen idea of propitiation. Ecclesiastical leaders imagine that salvation is by works and that men by works can atone for sin, and so they offer the one whom they think rebellious as a sacrifice to their god not to the true God, because he is not pleased with such sacrifices. " target="_blank">http://www.nisbett.com/righteousness/aor/rom03.htm[/quote]
This is well put, I think. It was Jones and Waggoner's teaching on justification by faith which EGW so heartily endorsed.
The first underlined statement makes the point that the idea of propitiation is that there is wrath to be appeased. It also makes the point that there is we who need the sacrifice, and not God. So the inescapable conclusion would seem to me to be that it is that it is our wrath which needs to be propitiated.
To put it in another way, it is we who are not right with God ("estamos de mal com Deus" -- I like the Portuguese expression; there's no really good one in English I can think of. The closest that comes to mind is to be at odds with someone.) He is "right with us" (estar de bem conosco).
The gift of Christ is reconcile us to God. God needs no reconciling. He so loved us, He gave us His Son.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13943
06/01/05 05:52 PM
06/01/05 05:52 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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R: Tom and Ikan, Of course I agree that sin brings mental misery, pain and suffering. But suppose the physical effects of sin are eliminated. Is sin still lethal in itself? T: Yes, sin is lethal, because it causes us to separate ourselves from God, who is alone the source of life. The principle of sin is suicidal from beginning to end. In God is life, and that life is the life of men. Apart from Him, there is no life. Only death. "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (1 John 5:12) "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life (DA 764)." R:About the tree of life. Yes, man had to continually partake of it to perpetuate his life. That’s why God barred the access to it after sin. But Ellen White makes clear that man could have become an immortal sinner by continuing to partake of it. Could it counteract the physical effects of sin? Probably. T: She points out the tree had supernatural powers. So that man was cut off from the tree in no proves that sin is not lethal. It only proves the tree has special healing powers. R: Now let’s analyze Satan’s case. Satan doesn’t have to partake of any tree to have his life perpetuated. God made angels in such a way that they can live forever. Sin has no physical effect upon them. The only way they can die is if God ceases to impart life to them (which is the same as removing their lives or killing them). Sin is the reason why evil angels will die (and in this sense it is lethal), but what will cause their death is the wrath of God. If God didn’t manifest His wrath (or chose another form of removing their lives), they would never die. T: "Sin has no physical effect upon them." I don't think this is true. I recall vividly reading a vision of EGW's where she describes Satan's appearance, and from the description it is readily apparant that sin has had dramatic effects upon him. Unfortunately I can't remember the words used well enough to find the vision. Maybe someone else can. quote:
The same power that upholds nature, is working also in man. The same great laws that guide alike the star and the atom control human life. The laws that govern the heart's action, regulating the flow of the current of life to the body, are the laws of the mighty Intelligence that has the jurisdiction of the soul. From Him all life proceeds. Only in harmony with Him can be found its true sphere of action. For all the objects of His creation the condition is the same--a life sustained by receiving the life of God, a life exercised in harmony with the Creator's will. To transgress His law, physical, mental, or moral, is to place one's self out of harmony with the universe, to introduce discord, anarchy, ruin. (Ed 99)
A number of your posts seem to have a Deistic quality to them, as if God wound things up and things go on without God having to do anything. But nothing would live even for a second if not for God. God actively imparts and sustains life. No life could exist even for a moment apart from the word of God, which imparts and sustains.
Satan has transgressed God's law, and should be dead. The only reason that Satan is not dead is that God is actively intervening to keep Him alive. He does this so the principles of Satan's government, the principles of sin, might be made apparant, in contrast to the principles of God's own government. Only in this way could the universe be secured.
quote:
Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
Just previously, she had written:
quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
Sin so disforms the character that one who practices it cannot stand the glory of God. The glory of God is just God being God; that is, being good. This same glory, which destroys those who have given themselves over to sin, gives life to the righteous.
This alone should be sufficient to see the hideous character of sin. That which gives life to those who have not rebelled results in the death of those who have. What's different? Not God, but the sinners.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13944
06/01/05 11:54 PM
06/01/05 11:54 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Roseangela:
You said:"God made angels in such a way that they can live forever...Sin has no physical effect upon them. The only way they can die is if God ceases to impart life to them.."
This is an oxymoronic statement, isn't it? To live forever and not live are contrary, at least to simple English, IMHO. "God alone hath immortality" and everything else is dependent on His sustaining them, even angels, whether good or evil. Satan loves to make himself into a god, in earthly minds, so the concept of angels being subject to death is a real shocker to even christians when they learn Present Truth.
But as to your proclaiming angels were created immortal: Can you sustain that with some back-up, please? The Word says that only God has immortality, unconditionally. All other creations are dependent.
As for sin having no effect on angels; Please consider this: Where did Lucifer recruit his followers from in Heaven? His sin-disease had no material effect on the angels that fell with him?? Odd concept...
I tell you what: when we are on the ramparts of the New Jerusalem, looking down on the hordes of evil angels and evil men, lets ask them if sin had no real physical effects on them and compare notes!
As for sin's tangible effects on faithful angels
Is "fleeing" (to run away or escape from danger, pursuit, unpleasantness,etc.)a physical effect?
" Angels flee from the dwelling where words of discord are exchanged, where gratitude is almost a stranger to the heart, and censure leaps like black balls to the lips, spotting the garments, defiling the Christian character." {1T 695.2}
Is feeling unwanted, deflected, indifferently treated emotions that angels actually have over sin, and hence causing a real material effect to occur...leaving someone?:
When we become absorbed in worldly things so that we have no thought for Him in whom our hope of eternal life is centered, we separate ourselves from Jesus and from the heavenly angels. These holy beings cannot remain where the Saviour's presence is not desired, and His absence is not marked. This is why discouragement so often exists among the professed followers of Christ." {DA 83.2}
Is "grief" merely intellectual? Or harmless? Are angels emotionless, detached, Teflon-coated automatons??
"The heavenly angels grieve that those who were once watching should, by their indolence and unfaithfulness, increase the trial and burdens of those who were trying, with earnestness and perseverance, to maintain their waiting, watching positions." {PH098 16.1}
I hope you see what I mean. Spiritual beings are quite real, tangible, mortal and definite, even though they are different than us.
We must fight against Neo-platonic tendencies that makes spiritual beings ethereal, wispy and bodiless, emotionless ghosts.
Is this the quote you were thinking of , Tom?:
"I was then shown Satan as he was, a happy, exalted angel. Then I was shown him as he now is. He still bears a kingly form. His features are still noble, for he is an angel fallen. But the expression of his countenance is full of anxiety, care, unhappiness, malice, hate, mischief, deceit, and every evil. That brow which was once so noble, I particularly noticed. His forehead commenced from his eyes to recede backward. I saw that he had demeaned himself so long, that every good quality was debased, and every evil trait was developed. His eyes were cunning, sly, and showed great penetration. His frame was large, but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face. As I beheld him, his chin was resting upon his left hand. He appeared to be in deep thought. A smile was upon his countenance, which made me tremble, it was so full of evil, and Satanic slyness. This smile is the one he wears just before he makes sure of his victim, and as he fastens the victim in his snare, this smile grows horrible." {1SG 27.2}
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13945
06/02/05 03:37 AM
06/02/05 03:37 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Yes, that was the quote. Especially this part: "but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face."
This quote certainly seems to me to contradict the thought that sin has no physical effect on angels.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13946
06/02/05 07:12 AM
06/02/05 07:12 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
Of course I agree that sin brings mental misery, pain and suffering. But suppose the physical effects of sin are eliminated. Is sin still lethal in itself?
Suppose the physical effects of AIDS is removed, is it still lethal? Suppose the physical effects of shooting oneself in the head with a shotgun is removed, is it still lethal? etc etc
/Thomas
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13947
06/02/05 12:57 PM
06/02/05 12:57 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom, then whose wrath is it? Man’s? quote:
Satan has transgressed God's law, and should be dead. The only reason that Satan is not dead is that God is actively intervening to keep Him alive.
I don’t believe God is intervening in a special way to keep Him alive any more than He is intervening to keep holy angels alive.
quote:
A number of your posts seem to have a Deistic quality to them, as if God wound things up and things go on without God having to do anything.
Did you read what I said?
“The only way they can die is if God ceases to impart life to them (which is the same as removing their lives or killing them).”
Ikan,
quote:
But as to your proclaiming angels were created immortal: Can you sustain that with some back-up, please? The Word says that only God has immortality, unconditionally. All other creations are dependent.
I can sure provide a back-up, but please first read again what I said:
“The only way they can die is if God ceases to impart life to them (which is the same as removing their lives or killing them).”
I didn’t say they have innate immortality and that their life is not sustained by God. Now I would like to reiterate that the only way they can die is if God ceases to impart life to them; there is no other agent which could make them die.
Now, the back-up you asked:
Luke 20:36 “for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.”
Would you guys say that Satan can die of old age? Of a disease? By being shot, hurt with a knife, hanged? How can he die, in your opinion?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13948
06/02/05 01:03 PM
06/02/05 01:03 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
Suppose the physical effects of AIDS is removed, is it still lethal? Suppose the physical effects of shooting oneself in the head with a shotgun is removed, is it still lethal? etc etc
Of course not.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13949
06/02/05 01:26 PM
06/02/05 01:26 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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R: Tom, then whose wrath is it? Man’s? T: There's only two parties, Rosangela. God and man. If it is not God that is propitiated, then it is man. Here's a portion of the quote, which was mostly underlined: quote:
Of course the idea of a propitiation or sacrifice is that there is wrath to be appeased. But take particular notice that it is we who require the sacrifice, and not God. He provides the sacrifice. The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible.
It is the height of absurdity to say that God is so angry with men that he will not forgive them unless something is provided to appease his wrath, and that therefore he himself offers the gift to himself, by which he is appeased.
If propitiation involves the appeasement of wrath, and God is not propitiated, then it must by man who is appeased, and his wrath that is being dealt with. God does not need to be reconciled -- man does.
Old Tom:Satan has transgressed God's law, and should be dead. The only reason that Satan is not dead is that God is actively intervening to keep Him alive.
R:I don’t believe God is intervening in a special way to keep him alive any more than He is intervening to keep holy angels alive.
quote:
To transgress His law, physical, mental, or moral, is to place one's self out of harmony with the universe, to introduce discord, anarchy, ruin. (Ed 99)
quote:
Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished. (DA 764)
Satan has placed himself out of harmony with the universe. He has brought ruin upon himself. Had God allowed, or if God were to allow now, Satan to reap the full result of his sin, he would perish. This is not true of the holy angels.
God intervenes in the case of Satan by not manifesting His glory to him, because to do so would result in his death. God does manifest His glory to the holy angels, and this is life to them.
Old Tom:A number of your posts seem to have a Deistic quality to them, as if God wound things up and things go on without God having to do anything.
Did you read what I said?
T: Yes, and a number of your posts seem to indicate that you believe that angels have immortality of themselves. You wrote something like God created angels so that they live forever. Phil Blanc has noticed and commented on the same thing.
R: “The only way they can die is if God ceases to impart life to them (which is the same as removing their lives or killing them).”
T: It's certainly true that if God were to cease to give life to the angels, they would die. I don't know how you can construe this as meaning that God so created the angels that they would live forever. He didn't create angels any differently than man in this respect. Life was given to all on the condition of obedience, which is not an arbitrary requirement, but simply a statement of truth (living in harmony with the principles of God's government promotes life, because that's what self-sacrificing love results in). Those who substituted the life giving principle of self-sacrificing love with selfishness have brought discord and ruin upon themselves. Not because God arbitrarily kills them, but because to live selfishly is to die. Selfishness is death, because, by definition, it separates one from others, principally God. And God alone has life, so if we separate ourselves from Him, we die.
However, I would not construe God's allowing people to suffer the result of sin as God's killing them. God, however, has presented Himself in this way (as doing that which He permits), so presenting God in such a way can certainly be done. However, it would be good to understand what is really happening. That is, if you say God will kill the wicked, and by that you mean that God ceases to impart them life, then I agree with that idea, but I think the language used would be confusing to most, unless it's explained.
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