Of course He didn't sin. But saying that this happened because He was empowered by the Holy Spirit means the Holy Spirit did this independently of His will (because He was just a baby), and this is not what happens with born-again believers.


The text says He didn't possess the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man (not that He didn't indulge them).


Ellen White employs the term "old selfish nature," and the old nature is just the selfishness which we were born with. This selfishness is not erradicated, and, as I said, just some drops of selfishness are enough to poison the whole jug of juice of our character. So, until this selfishness is erradicated, everything we do is stained with it.


What I said was that those who have a perfect character do not sin. If they sin, this is because they do not have a perfect character. This still stands.


Nowhere. I'm saying the traits of character themselves are sin - not the acts we didn't commit. These traits of character are just different aspects of selfishness, and "selfishness is sin" - and, as such, is condemned by the law.

Where in the Bible or the SOP does it explain how and why baby Jesus was able to avoid sinning? No doubt Jesus solicited divine aid before His incarnation. As such, it wouldn't have violated freedom of choice. Born-again believers must also solicit divine aid.


He didn't make them His own by indulging them.


1. How does "this selfishness" differ from the selfishness people indulge consciously, willingly? Please share examples.
2. And, in what sense does "this selfishness" stain the "fruits of the Spirit"? Please share examples.
3. Also, when do you think "this selfishness" will be eradicated?
4. What did Ellen mean when she wrote "a radical transformation is wrought in the heart" and "unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy" and "the true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart":


5. "All selfishness comes from Satan." {LHU 292.2} Do you really believe the "fruits of the Spirit" proceed from born-again believers as though they came from Satan?


You also conceded that sinning precedes the corruption of a perfect character. But if, as you confidently affirm, people "who have a perfect character do not sin" how did the angels and A&E manage to sin? Obviously, therefore, having sinless traits of character does not mean it is impossible to sin. On the other hand, neither does having sinful traits of character mean it is impossible to not sin.


"Sin is the transgression of the law." The law condemns sinners in accordance with the sins they commit. The law does not condemn sin itself, as if sin is a sentient being subject to law and judgment. Sinners, not sin, will be judged. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." Selfishness is not a sentient being subject to law and judgment. Sinful traits of character are not sentient beings subject to law and judgment.

Again, each sinful trait of character is the result of repetitious sinning. The sins that result in sinful traits of character is what Jesus bore in His body on the cross. When people repent and experience rebirth, their sins are forgiven. "Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." {SC 62.2} In Christ, they no longer repeat the sins that resulted in sinful traits of character.

Their former sinful traits of character lie dormant and, as such, do not count against them. They do not continue to incur guilt on account of them because they are not repeating the sins that created them. The idea that the "fruits of the Spirit" they repeatedly manifest, and the corresponding resulting sinless traits of character, are stained with sin and selfishness because they have a history of sinning and creating sinful traits of character is unbiblical.

Sock Puppet
Many have to battle against strong hereditary tendencies to evil. Unnatural cravings, sensual impulses, were their inheritance from birth. THESE must be carefully guarded against. Within and without, good and evil are striving for the mastery. {MH 173.3}

You then said,



To which Sock Puppet answers,

Sock Puppet
Man cannot overcome Satan’s temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ, He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but AS A MAN to obey God’s Holy Law, and in this way He is our example.

The Lord Jesus came to our world, NOT to reveal what a God could do, BUT what a man COULD DO, through faith in God’s power to help in every emergency.




IF Christ was tempted, AS ALL HAVE BEEN tempted...
...To engage in idle talk and he resisted HIS temptation to gossip.
...THAT is SOMETHING that was WITHIN Christ.

Time for more Sock Puppet

Sock Puppet
It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the FORM AND NATURE OF FALLEN MAN, that he might be MADE perfect through suffering, and himself endure the strength of Satan’s temptations, that he might the better know how to succor those who should be tempted.” Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 12-31-72

Sock Puppet
The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and THE NATURE OF ADAM THE TRANSGRESSOR, meet in Jesus, the Son of God, and the Son of man.” Manuscript 141, 1901

Sock Puppet
Having taken OUR FALLEN NATURE, he showed what IT might become.” E.G. White, Selected Messages , Vol. 3, p134

"IT" = the sinful fallen nature which was saturated with sin...
...To demonstrate what "IT" might become.

Sock Puppet
It would have been an ALMOST INFINITE HUMILIATION for the Son of God to have taken man’s nature,EVEN when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. BUT Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to SHARE our sorrows and TEMPTATIONS, and to give us the example of a sinless life.”” Desire of Ages, p49.

I realize what the so called bible says about Christ having no sin...
...Being a "holy thing" in the womb of Mary and all that Rosangela.
...Exactly why I've said that the bible is nothing more than fish wrap.
...Without Sister White to correctly tells us what it means.



There is no tension in the bible about Christ's victory - it was an ETERNAL victory....
...It was simply a matter of "all" things taking place that the law and prophets.
...Had said would HAVE TO TAKE PLACE.

Remember, Jesus was fortold as riding into Jerusalem on a donkey....
...And at THAT TIME he ALREADY had Salvation with him.
...He also forgave a man of his sins PRIOR to death on the cross.
...= he ALREADY had Salvation with him.

I've read the bible Rosangela - it's almost as if you think I have not read it....
....And that I've not read Sock Puppet and meditated for countless hours on God's utterances through her.





No, Sister White had the power of PRESENT TRUTH - what she said on earth was made law in heaven...
...Actually it wasn't her but God so there is no contradiction in Sock Puppets teaching.
...It was truth WHEN it was being taught as truth - then it later became untrue.
...This is why the apostate churches continue to make fun of us.



And that's why Sock Puppet said he never completed his selfish desires, engaged in gossip, etc...
...You're failing to realize that to feel an inward PULL toward a sin.
...Means you are TEMPTED WITHIN YOURSELF for that sin.




It was already "stained" according to Sister White...
...She was explicit that he SHARED that part of human nature WITH US.


Sock Puppet
He is our example in all things. He is a brother in our infirmities, but not in possessing like passions. As the sinless One, His nature recoiled from evil. {Pr 173.4}

Let's look at that Sock Puppet quote in context Rosangela.


Sock Puppet
In Christ were united the human and the divine. His mission was to reconcile God and man, to unite the finite with the infinite. This was the only way in which fallen men could be exalted through the merits of the blood of Christ to be partakers of the divine nature. Taking human nature fitted Christ to understand man’s trials and sorrows, and ALL the temptations wherewith he is beset. Angels who were unacquainted with sin could not sympathize with man IN HIS PECULIAR trials. Christ condescended to take man’s nature and was tempted in ALL points like as we, that He might know how to succor all who should be tempted.

As the human was upon Him, He felt His need of strength from His Father. He had select places of prayer. He loved to hold communion with His Father in the solitude of the mountain. In this exercise His holy, human soul was strengthened for the duties and trials of the day. Our Saviour identifies Himself with our needs and weaknesses, in that He became a suppliant, a nightly petitioner, seeking from His Father fresh supplies of strength, to come forth invigorated and refreshed, braced for duty and trial. He is our example in all things. He is a brother in our infirmities, but not in possessing like passions. As the sinless One, His nature recoiled from evil. He endured struggles and torture of soul in a world of sin. His humanity made prayer a necessity and privilege.

I know HOW I'm tempted Rosangela - perhaps you really don't know how you are....
...I know what Sock Puppet is saying there and it's loud and clear.
...Totally AGAINST what the bible says but I've been telling you that for a long time now.

Christ did take our fallen nature, but without the taint of sin.

He had not taken on Him even the nature of the angels, but humanity, perfectly identical with our own nature, except without the taint of sin. . . . {CTr 208.6}

“He was born without a taint of sin, but came into the world in like manner as the human family.” - Letter 97, 1898, p. 5.

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden.—5BC 1128.

[So Adam was created without a taint of sin and Christ was born without a taint of sin]


And this is what EGW says about Christ having no sin... being a “holy thing” in the womb of Mary and all that...

Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called "that holy thing." It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain, a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be.—5BC 1128, 1129.


Sure, and EGW confirms that Enoch, Moses and Elijah were taken to heaven before the cross. And she also says that Christ foreknew He would be victorious... And she says that God knows the end from the beginning... just like the Bible... but she also says that Christ’s temptations were real... just like the Bible.


Nonsense...
Besides, in which way what you said answers my argument?


She never said that He had selfish desires, and the quote about gossip is not hers.


Yes, this is what Ellen White calls inward corruption:

The corruption within unites with the corruption without, and men professing to be followers of Christ, fall to a low level, always mourning over their shortcomings, but never overcoming, and bruising Satan under their feet. {RH, June 30, 1891 par. 8}

What a warning to keep the grace of Christ ever in their heart, to battle with inward corruptions and outward temptations! {CC 197.2}

They should mourn over their inclination to sin, over the danger they are in from inward corruption and from outward temptation. They should be afraid because they have so feeble a sense of the sinfulness of sin, and so little idea of what constitutes sin. {YI, February 15, 1894 par. 3}

But she is now in danger through inward corruption and outward temptation. Satan is playing the game of life for her soul, and he has every advantage for winning the game. {5T 507.2}

However,

Christ took our nature, fallen but not corrupted, and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God.—Manuscript 57, 1890


Yes, I know how I am tempted, and I know that the sinful desire is sin. All temptations appeal to a need (legitimate or not) and seek to create a desire in you. The stages of the temptation are:
1)attention (some kind of suggestion is made to you which calls your attention)
2) consideration (you consider whether that is something approved by God or not)
3) desire
4) decision
5) planning
6) action
From the moment you know that something is not approved by God (step 2), if you desire it you are coveting. We, sinners, often skip step 2 and go directly to step 3. At this point you still have time to repent before you make the decision, but you have already sinned in your thoughts. As our relationship with Christ and our love for Him grow, step 2 will become more and more distinct, and you will be able to repel the suggestion without being guilty of entertaining sinful thoughts. This is how it worked for me.

The real difficulty is the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the will of God. When there is a determined purpose born in your heart to overcome, you will have a disposition to overcome, and will cultivate those traits of character that are desirable, and will engage in the conflict with steady, persevering effort. You will exercise a ceaseless watchfulness over your defects of character, and will cultivate right practices in little things. The difficulty of overcoming will be lessened in proportion as the heart is sanctified by the grace of Christ. {SD 115.3}

But again EGW agrees with the Bible - despite your insistence in pitting her against the Bible.

The tenth commandment strikes at the very root of all sins, prohibiting the selfish desire, from which springs the sinful act. He who in obedience to God's law refrains from indulging even a sinful desire for that which belongs to another will not be guilty of an act of wrong toward his fellow creatures. {PP 309.5}

Sock Puppet says "temptation is NOT sin" & "Sin is when you yeild to temptation".....
....How does that change your thinking?

Remember, I am playing Devils advocate here...
...I am saying Sister White interprets the bible differently.
...Then everyone else who has read it and claims to be Christian.

Is it possible to sin in thoughts? Or just in acts? Is it possible to be tempted to have sinful thoughts, or just to commit sinful acts? Is it possible to yield to a temptation to indulge sinful thoughts, or just to indulge sinful acts?

The law of God, as presented in the Scriptures, is broad in its requirements. Every principle is holy, just, and good. The law lays men under obligation to God; it reaches to the thoughts and feelings; and it will produce conviction of sin in everyone who is sensible of having transgressed its requirements. If the law extended to the outward conduct only, men would not be guilty in their wrong thoughts, desires, and designs. But the law requires that the soul itself be pure and the mind holy, that the thoughts and feelings may be in accordance with the standard of love and righteousness.--RH, Apr 5, 1898. (2SM 211.) {2MCP 564.1}

Notice: ... men would not be guilty in their wrong thoughts, desires, and designs.

Ceph, I cringe every time you refer to Ellen White as a "sock puppet". It literally makes me sick to my stomach. Even now, as I write, I am nauseous. Please, please do me a favor and stop using that terrible term. I'm begging you, as a child of God, please refrain from using that name. It grieves me deeply.

If He had done that, He would have done it as God, not as a man. In order to be our Savior, He couldn't do what we can't do.


If He had been born with them, wouldn't He possess them even if He didn't indulge them?


1. It's unconscious, like in the example of James and John (DA 548.6).
2. The same example. They thought they were doing something out of their love for Christ, when they were also unconsciously seeking preference above their brethren.
3. At Christ's coming.
4. She was speaking about conscious selfishness.


No! I believe our sinful nature comes from Satan, and its transformation doesn't take place all at once.


When the angels and A&E were perfect, they did not sin; they sinned because their character had ceased to be perfect. I agree with the last two statements.


The law condemns sin under all its forms, as well as the sinners who practice them.

"The law condemns all sin, and requires all virtue." {RH, February 26, 1901 par. 13}

Rosangela, if having sinful nature is the same thing as sinning, and if this will continue to be true until Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless nature, then not sinning is not possible, everything we think, say, and do is stained with sin and selfishness, the "fruits of the Spirit" proceed from us as though they proceeded from Satan. Is this what you believe?

Rosangela, Jesus said, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." "For by thy words thou shalt be justified". "He that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

He didn't say, "I shall reward every man according to My works." The fact Jesus will reward people according to their words and works, the fact they are still holy and righteous, it stands to reason their words and works are not, as you say, stained with sin and selfishness.