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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13960
06/03/05 10:45 PM
06/03/05 10:45 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
R: My conversion took place 30 years ago, when I was 16. I remember how I felt empty and considered life meaningless, and Christ reached out to me when suicide was a serious consideration in my mind.
quote:
R: How would you lead someone to understand that they need God if they feel comfortable in sin?
You did not seem to be very comfortable in sin!
What makes you think that others are feeling comfortable in sin? You seem to have the idea that sin is something pleasant and satisfying, at least for some. That is truly a misconception. Do you not see how much tremendous effort people exert to drown out their misery? Why would you think that an erroneous message of a wrathful God would enlighten them? I know that such view kept me from coming to God for most 20 years. Had I instead seen that he was here to save me rather than grill me, I could have been spared many useless attempts at ‘fixing’ myself to avoid the grill.
And to think that one who is out to grill you proposes himself at the same time that he wants to save you is very unpalatable to wicked or saint.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13961
06/03/05 10:51 PM
06/03/05 10:51 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Yes indeed Ikan, praise the Lord ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif) Truly the bringing of the light of life to this dying world is a moment by moment experience with the Lord and his working, that delights the soul.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13962
06/04/05 01:09 AM
06/04/05 01:09 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Given the name of the thread, "salvation of the wicked," I would like to share a few thoughts in this regard. In order to understand the cure, it's helpful to understand the disease. Two of the bad things sin does is to cause us to condemn ourselves (in connection with this, self loathing) and to view God in a false light. Two examples of this are seen in Adam and Christ. Adam, after sinning, when asked why he had hidden (He was literally asked where he was, but the implied question was why he had hidden. That Adam understood this was the question is clear by his response.) responded "I was naked" and "I was afraid." The "I was naked" comment brings out the self-condemnation of sin, and the "I was afraid" the viewing of God in a false light. Christ, on the cross, exclaimed "I am a worm" (self-condemnation, self-loathing) and "My God, my God, why has Thou forsaken Me?" (viewing God in a false light). Even for the sinless Son of God, sin has such a devasting effect on the mind, that His faith in God was tested to the maximum. Fortunatately for all, Christ's faith held firm, and He chose to believe the truth about God, rather than give in to the lies sin was preaching to Him. So given these problems of sin -- self-condemnation and viewing God in a false light -- how does God heal from these? While there are two problems, one solution suffices. The solution is to reveal the truth about God. This was the purpose of Jesus Christ's mission -- to reveal God's character and thus set men right with God. The truth is that God does not condemn, but forgives. Jesus explained that the Father does not judge, but had given judgment to the Son (John 5; "judgment" here is negative judgment, which is tantamount to condemnation). In John 8 and John 12, Jesus explained that He does not judge (some versions say "judge", others say "condemn"), but the word which He spoke would justify or condemn, depending on whether or not it was believed. That is, if we believe the truth about God, then the light of the glory of God will give us life. If we refuse to believe the good news, then the light of His glory will result in death. The same thing which gives life to the righteous, results in the destruction of the wicked. Continuing on regarding God not condemning, I'll mention two examples. First of all we have the woman caught in adultery, to whom Christ answered His own question as to who would condemn her, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more." (The "go and sin no more" part would take care of the condemnation the woman was feeling, as without sin there is no condemnation). Secondly Christ revealed the heart of the Father when He prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." We are healed from the self-condemnation which sin induces when we believe the truth about God that He does not condemn, but rather heals. "For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him" (John 3:17; Amplified version). The second problem of sin of which I spoke was that it causes us to view God in a false light. Obviously the problem of viewing God in a false light is also dealt with by perceiving the truth about Him. So the same solution, perceiving the truth about God, fixes both problems. quote:
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 22)
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13963
06/04/05 12:18 PM
06/04/05 12:18 PM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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John I must agree with you: the fascade of "comfortable sinners" is worthless. They may attempt to appear at peace with sin, but the Word without any doubt reveals:
"O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea.." yet there is actually "no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked." Isaiah 48:18,22
Therefore if we see sinners as happy, comfortable or peaceful in their disease, then we are walking by sight and circumstances, not trusting in the facts from the Lord.
Roseangela Fear of destruction, coming from religionists, has little weight in these times, I'm afraid. Hellfire and brimstone preaching (whether prophecy based or not) will scare children and shaky christians, but is laughed at openly in today's world dominated by proud sinners, at least in the West.
I'm not saying that sinners do not fear death, but that is based solely on the dread of the "Unknown", as the world and the devil are determined to keep the issues confused. But dread is a hard emotion to hold onto when nothing is apparently threatening you. Hence folks scared into the church, find the exit door by and by. Could this be one reason for the high loss rate of new believers in SDA churchs?
Rather, I see it that we are instructed to preach Christ's love for sinners by
1)His suffering & dying, due solely by our sins being piled upon Him, and therefore anyone can come to God in peace who will,
2)His living again for our fullest recovery from sin by way of the Sanctuary in Heaven, and
3)His love dramatically proven by His returning for all of us who love Him, not dread Him, both living and dead Children of God.
Tom I think this letter from mommy E.G. White to her own sons expresses some of the same thoughts as your last post:
"We want your conduct to be right, governed by a sense of duty, and you have a principle, a determination of your own, that you will do right--not because you are obliged to, but because you love to. For in right-doing there is no sting, no self-reproach, no self-condemnation; but a pleasing consciousness of right-doing.{AY 50.2}
There is nothing more more horrific than to see a child flinchingly obey from fear of a beating or abuse and not from understanding and love of doing what he knows is right.
A parent that forces, beats, threatens with death is no parent at all. Yet a parent who sees their child attempting to place it's hand upon a fire, will lovingly, yet loudly, warn it and grab it's hand.
The child is protected from itself , the world and the devil by the parent, but to need protection from the parent is a criminal affair.
Why should we expect less from our Heavenly Father?
[ June 04, 2005, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Phil N. D'blanc ]
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13964
06/05/05 01:19 PM
06/05/05 01:19 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Yes Ikan; moreover fear and dread are not only inefficacious to motivate one to repentance and conversion, but the scripture actually tells us that through fear of death Satan holds us in bondage to sin. This should be a solemn wakeup call.
Let’s hear it again. It tells us that it is Satan that holds us in bondage and prevents conversion through “fear of death”.
Moreover: It tells us that it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance; as Tom quoted a few posts back.
If we give this a little thought we might realize what repentance really is, and stop falling for the fake.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13965
06/05/05 01:51 PM
06/05/05 01:51 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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If there is no fear of death, you will seek no one to deliver you from death. What becomes evident here is the unbalance of emphasizing God only as a Father, but forgetting He is a Judge and a Lawgiver, as well as a moral Governor. He doesn’t just hate sin because it hurts His children, but He hates sin because sin is a crime in His eyes, deserving of death as punishment. The law and the gospel go hand in hand. If you don’t make people realize that the law of God condemns them to death because of their sins, and that therefore they need a Savior, they will not seek Christ. Those who do not understand they are lost, will never feel the need to be saved.
“The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force.”--Ms 5, 1876, pp. 1-3.
“Lest a single statement of the precepts of Jehovah shall be evaded or forgotten, lest we should indifferently regard their claims, God declares that to all that transgress that law they are a ministration of death. The heavenly council having arraigned and convicted the law breaker, pronounces his condemnation; and there is nothing in himself to save him from the sentence and penalty of death. ‘The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.’” {1888 1390.1}
“The law speaks condemnation to those who are not doers of his precepts. God will accept no plea that man can offer to obtain acquittal. There is no power in law to save the transgressor of Law. But Christ, who gave himself as the world's sin bearer, becomes the Mediator for man, and the sin pardoner for all who come confessing their sins, and accepting him as their Saviour.” {1888 1388.1}
“Through the death of Christ a door of hope was opened for fallen man. Man was under sentence of death for the transgression of the law of God. He was under condemnation as a traitor, as a rebel; but Christ came to be his substitute, to die as a malefactor, to suffer the penalty of the traitors, bearing the weight of their sins upon his divine soul.” {ST, February 27, 1893 par. 1}
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13966
06/05/05 03:31 PM
06/05/05 03:31 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
If you don’t make people realize that the law of God condemns them to death because of their sins, and that therefore they need a Savior, they will not seek Christ.
The Bible says that it is the goodness of God which leads to repentance. The law is a transcript of God's character. God's character is revealed by the law, but it is more effectively revealed by Christ.
What people need to know is the Gospel. In Christ the law and the Gospel are perfectly blended. In Christ and Him crucified, the lost have all they need.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13967
06/05/05 09:10 PM
06/05/05 09:10 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
The Bible says that it is the goodness of God which leads to repentance.
Nobody will be led to repentance or feel the need for repentance if they first don´t learn that they are sinners and that they are lost.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13968
06/05/05 09:41 PM
06/05/05 09:41 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
"This promise [of the power of the Holy Spirit] belongs as much to us as it did to them [Jesus’ disciples], and yet how rarely it is presented before the people, and its reception spoken of in the church. In consequence of this silence upon this most important theme, what promise do we know less about by its practical fulfillment than this rich promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit, whereby efficiency is to be given to all our spiritual labor?. . . Prophecies have been dwelt upon, doctrines have been expounded; but that which is essential to the church in order that they may grow in spiritual strength and efficiency, in order that the preaching may carry conviction with it, and souls be converted to God, has been largely left out of ministerial effort" (Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, p. 174)
Why We Need the Holy Spirit
quote:
Ezekiel 18
19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13969
06/06/05 03:32 AM
06/06/05 03:32 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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It is the preaching of Christ which leads to repentance. quote:
If those who today are teaching the word of God, would uplift the cross of Christ higher and still higher, their ministry would be far more successful. If sinners can be led to give one earnest look at the cross, if they can obtain a full view of the crucified Saviour, they will realize the depth of God's compassion and the sinfulness of sin. (AA 209)
quote:
The Lord has made every provision that the uplifted Saviour may be revealed to sinners. Although they are dead in trespasses and sins, their attention must be aroused by the preaching of Christ and Him crucified. (LHU 126)
quote:
The apostles in their preaching went back to Adam's day and brought their hearers down through prophetic history and ended with Christ and Him crucified, calling upon sinners to repent and turn from their sins to God. The representatives of Christ in our day should follow their example and in every discourse magnify Christ as the Exalted One, as all and in all. (4T 401)
quote:
If sinners can be led to give one earnest look at the cross, to obtain a full view of the crucified Saviour, all is gained. But very few ministers point sinners as they should to the Lamb of God. Few have a just estimate of the worth of souls or of the power of Christ to save. (RH 4/29/02)
quote:
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me F4 freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (Acts 2)
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