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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13970
06/06/05 05:56 AM
06/06/05 05:56 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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I must agree with Thomas and Tom:
No amount of threatened force, now or later, would have ever brought me to see Christ as only the Holy Spirit could have shown me, that fateful day when He saved me.
My conviction and repentence were not based on what He might do to me,good or bad, but what I had done to Him.
[ June 06, 2005, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Phil N. D'blanc ]
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13971
06/06/05 10:43 AM
06/06/05 10:43 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Of course it is Christ crucified that must be preached. However, the key point is that the sinner must understand why Christ died. He must understand that he is condemned to death by the law because of his sins, but Christ died to pay for these sins, to suffer the punishment he deserved, so that he should not perish but have eternal life. He must understand that Christ is his only hope of salvation.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13972
06/06/05 01:48 PM
06/06/05 01:48 PM
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Sorry you see things this way, Roseangela
To say to someone that the Father will kill you like He killed Jesus, if you don't do_______, just isn't the Gospel to me. It's Threat-theology.
Christ crucified by me and you is the Gospel.
Shame for what we are, what we have done to the Ever-loving Creator,not for the legalities of law-breaking and it's jurisprudence is what wins hearts.....and I dare say won your 16 year old heart too, if you remember.
Sin killed Christ, mine and yours and whomever I'm talking with. Everything He suffered was because of my wrong understanding about God, Sin, Life, Reality. I misunderstood and rebelled against any willingness to learn from Him, and rebelled further due to Threat-theologists and their self-preservationism with a halo.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13973
06/07/05 03:29 AM
06/07/05 03:29 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Ikan,
God is the moral Governor of the Universe, and maintaining the honor of the law was maintaining the honor of His own holy character. Forgiving the transgression of His law without any punishment would prove Satan's charges true, and thus imperil God's government.
"The transgression of God's law in a single instance, in the smallest particular, is sin. And the nonexecution of the penalty of that sin would be a crime in the divine administration. God is a judge, the Avenger of justice, which is the habitation and the foundation of His throne. He cannot dispense with His law; He cannot do away with its smallest item in order to meet and pardon sin. The rectitude, justice, and moral excellence of the law must be maintained and vindicated before the heavenly universe and the worlds unfallen."--Manuscript 145, Dec. 30, 1897, "Notes of Work." {UL 378.6}
The love of God is the most important thing in the world, and the only thing which can win the sinner's heart, but His love is not weak. It's a perfect blending of mercy and justice.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13974
06/06/05 04:15 PM
06/06/05 04:15 PM
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I'm glad Rosangela sees things the way she does; for it's the same way the Bible writers and Ellen White saw things. Look at what Paul said to Felix, for instance: "And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee." Acts 24:25 If you don't think God will punish sinners, you're preaching "another gospel." It's just that simple.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13975
06/06/05 06:44 PM
06/06/05 06:44 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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There are many sermons or perhaps reviews of sermons in the book of acts. Some of them, like the one that John quoted mentions the judgement, others dont. Something that all sermons mention is the death and ressurection of Jesus. Obviously this is incomparably much more important as it is the focus of every sermon. It may be less obvious in some of Pauls sermons but that is becourse he speaks of his own witness in those speaches. However none of these are fire and brimstone "look at how God will bbq you in holy fire" kind of sermons. Here are some of the first sermons found who where not spoken by Jesus. John the baptist quote:
Matthew 3
1In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea 2and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."
...
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Peter quote:
Acts 2
14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.'[c]
22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25David said about him:
" 'I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will live in hope,
27because you will not abandon me to the grave,
nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.'[e]
29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[f] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '[g]
36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Peter quote:
Acts 3
11While the beggar held on to Peter and John, all the people were astonished and came running to them in the place called Solomon's Colonnade. 12When Peter saw this, he said to them: "Men of Israel, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.
17"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ[a] would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'[b]
24"Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days. 25And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'[c] 26When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."
Philip quote:
Acts 8
30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.
31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
"He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth."[e]
34The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
Peter quote:
Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. 36You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
And many others...
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13976
06/06/05 06:51 PM
06/06/05 06:51 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by John:
If you don't think God will punish sinners, you're preaching "another gospel." It's just that simple.
This is another question to the one discussed in this thread. I dont think anyone is disputing that God will punish sinners. What is disputed is if this should be the focus of what we tell unbelievers or not. Should our sermons start with, "God will burn you for your sins unless you repent and follow Him", or should they start with "There is a God in heaven and He cares about you. Turn and follow Him."
/Thomas
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13977
06/06/05 07:45 PM
06/06/05 07:45 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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I have a question to Rosangela (and John). What do you think about the sermon Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God? You can read it Here or listen to it here . (if any moderator objects to the links, pls remove only them and not the entire post, I am interested to hear the answeres. /Thomas
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13978
06/06/05 11:42 PM
06/06/05 11:42 PM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Sorry, John Howard and Roseangela but you are incorrectly accusing others when you insert that they believe that our God is a weak, unjustice, goody-goody. No one, as Thomas pointed out ever came close to saying that God will let sinners ecscape, any sinner not you, me, or Adolf Hitler or Mr. Rogers!
I, for one, do not see God as a Commandment-breaker, so therfore His revealing His glorious powers to recreate the Earth for His saints will be the same power that destroys those that will not come to Him. Simple as that. God Judges life for a New Beginning, and just as a fish out of water cannot survive, a sinner who will not come to the Source of Life, Christ Jesus, cannot survive the fullness of God's Life and Presence.
Others here see God as a God of force, "Love Me or I'll kill you!" in His Heart. That creates a Gangster God, who although patient, will one day just get ticked off enough to wipe out most of humanity.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13979
06/07/05 03:30 AM
06/07/05 03:30 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
R: If there is no fear of death, you will seek no one to deliver you from death.
Is there no Satan? The scripture says that Satan is the one who supplies fear of death and through it keeps us in bondage to sin.
quote:
R: What becomes evident here is the unbalance of emphasizing God only as a Father, but forgetting He is a Judge and a Lawgiver, as well as a moral Governor.
Yes indeed God is all of these, but these are not contrary one to the other; they are all one and the same. You make a dichotomy of God, splitting him as a schizophrenic and make the work of his judgment contrary to the work of his salvation. If we see God as a Judge to be any different than that of Father we have missed the boat entirely and fail to let him judge us. Christ came to correct that concept. If we see him as Governor to be any different than Father we fail to let him govern us. The error is in identifying him with the destructive activities of sin.
quote:
R: He doesn’t just hate sin because it hurts His children, but He hates sin because sin is a crime in His eyes, deserving of death as punishment.
He doesn’t just hate sin because it hurts His children, but He hates sin because sin is a crime; that is why he wants to save us from it, so that we do not perish.
quote:
R: The law and the gospel go hand in hand. If you don’t make people realize that the law of God condemns them to death because of their sins, and that therefore they need a Savior, they will not seek Christ.
The law and the gospel go hand in hand. But you make the law contrary to the gospel. If people do not realize that the reason why they are miserable and under condemnation is because they have forsaken and broken the law of life and become slaves to sin and thus are under sin’s condemnation, they will not come to the law and life giver, their Savior to be saved and restored to life.
Christ does not save from God! Repeat: Christ does not save from God!
He saves us from sin to God! Repeat: He saves us from sin to God!
quote:
R: Those who do not understand they are lost will never feel the need to be saved.
Very true, however you do not seem to believe that they are lost and in trouble; you seem to think that God has to threaten and intimidate them into thinking they are going to be in trouble (and not with sin, but with him). So that he ends up being the problem instead of savior.
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