Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}

Jacob's history is also an assurance that God will not cast off those who have been deceived and tempted and betrayed into sin, but who have returned unto Him with true repentance. While Satan seeks to destroy this class, God will send His angels to comfort and protect them in the time of peril. The assaults of Satan are fierce and determined, his delusions are terrible; but the Lord's eye is upon His people, and His ear listens to their cries. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected. {GC 621.1}

Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble. {GC 623.1}

2. No. Sinful flesh nature is not a sentient being capable of sinning and incurring guilt.

M: It is also clear Jesus did not indulge the same sinful propensities sinners indulge. Like born-again believers, Jesus subdued, subjected, reined-in the unholy clamorings of His sinful flesh nature.

R: The text says He didn't possess the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man (not that He didn't indulge them).

M: He didn't make them His own by indulging them.

5. "All selfishness comes from Satan." {LHU 292.2}

Arnold: Yes, we have missed, for the most part, the call to be made perfect. We are not allowing ourselves to be made perfect. While one reason is that many people think it is impossible, I think the bigger problem is that most people do not want to be perfect. Sin is still comfortable.

Mountain Man: Arnold, your views on sin and perfection concern me. Your idea that the righteous results of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature are selfish and sin-stained is alarming to me. How can you lament the idea that many people claim perfection is impossible while at the same time arguing born-again believers are incapable of experiencing "righteousness and true holiness"?

Tom: MM, is that what Arnold thinks? I don't see the evidence for that in the quote you posted from Arnold. Did he say somewhere that thinks the results of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature are selfish and sin-stained? That seems extremely unlikely to me. Did he say somewhere that born-again believers are incapable of experiencing "righteousness and true holiness"? It also strikes me as extremely unlikely that he would say this.

M: Yes. But being more acutely aware of my defective traits of character isn't the same thing as acting them out in sinful ways. Do you agree? If not, why not?

A: Of course it's not the same thing. You keep saying that as if anyone here believes otherwise. You are the only one here who ever brings it up. Here are some quotes to show that even true believers are defective:


A: You have seen all of these before, since I have quoted them to you before. But my question to you now is this: Is it a sin to have an imperfect character?

M: You wrote, "Of course it's not the same thing." Are you sure? Because you go on as if they are. You equate having defective traits of character with being guilty and condemned. You ask, "Is it a sin to have an imperfect character?" It depends on whether or not you act it out in sinful thoughts, words, or behavior. Jesus Himself had a "defective character" in the sense He bore in His sinful flesh the sins of the entire world. Obviously, therefore, having defective traits of character does not cause guilt or condemnation. So long as we subdue, subject, rein-in our defects to a sanctified will and mind we stand before God without blame or blemish.

A: No, I do not say they are the same thing. If it seems that way to you, that is only because you have fallen victim to a logical fallacy. Please remember syllogisms from your logic classes. Here are the premises: 1. Defective characters are condemned. 2. Sinful actions are condemned. Even if both are true, that does not necessarily mean that they are the same.

M: You wrote, "Is it a sin to have an imperfect character?" It depends on whether or not you act it out in sinful thoughts, words, or behavior.

A: This is where our hamartiologies are fundamentally, and perhaps irreconcilably, different. You believe that one can have a nasty, depraved, despicable, rotten, selfish, Satanic character and still be sinless as long as he can keep from acting out his evil intentions. I believe, as the 10th commandment clearly teaches, that sin happens in the heart, and sinful actions merely reflect the evil abundance of the heart.

The graces of the Spirit are borne in love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness. We have new affections, new appetites, new tastes. Old things have passed away, and lo, all things have become new. {TSB 135.2}

The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 9}

The command, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect," would never have been given, if every provision had not been made whereby we may become as perfect in our sphere as God is in his. We are to be ever advancing from light to a greater light, holding fast what we have already received, and praying for more. Thus we shall never be left in darkness. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 10}

M: I don't understand how your question relates to my previous post. Please explain. Thank you.

A: I want to better understand what your idea of "righteousness and holiness" is. Your answer to my question above should help. You claim that all born-again believers are righteous and holy when it comes to keeping God's law. That doesn't sit well with what I have read in inspiration.


A: Note the similarity between the last part of that quote and my earlier quotes. Then note that this is talking about one who has been "reconciled to God through the blood of Christ."

The gospel of good news was not to be interpreted as allowing men to live in continued rebellion against God by transgressing His just and holy law. Why cannot those who claim to understand the Scriptures, see that God's requirement under grace is just the same He made in Eden-- perfect obedience to His law. In the judgment, God will ask those who profess to be Christians, Why did you claim to believe in My Son, and continue to transgress My law? Who required this at your hands--to trample upon My rules of righteousness? "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." The gospel of the New Testament is not the Old Testament standard lowered to meet the sinner and save him in his sins. God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. Let us accept it through faith, that the Father shall find in us no sin. But those who have trampled on the holy law will have no right to claim that righteousness. O that we might view the immensity of the plan of salvation as obedient children to all God's requirements, believing that we have peace with God through Jesus Christ, our atoning sacrifice (RH Sept. 21, 1886)! {6BC 1072.8}

God requires at this time just what He required of the holy pair in Eden, perfect obedience to His requirements. His law remains the same in all ages. The great standard of righteousness presented in the Old Testament is not lowered in the New. It is not the work of the gospel to weaken the claims of God's holy law, but to bring men up where they can keep its precepts. {6BC 1073.1}

The faith in Christ which saves the soul is not what it is represented to be by many. "Believe, believe," is their cry; "only believe in Christ, and you will be saved. It is all you have to do." While true faith trusts wholly in Christ for salvation, it will lead to perfect conformity to the law of God. Faith is manifested by works. And the apostle John declares, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar" (RH Oct. 5, 1886). {6BC 1073.2}