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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13990
06/07/05 10:08 PM
06/07/05 10:08 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
If the judge is righteous, he would recuse himself, which is, interestingly enough, just what God the Son did (John 12:47).
Tom,
This is to condensed for me, would you expand your thought for me?
/Thomas
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13991
06/07/05 10:39 PM
06/07/05 10:39 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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In the question Rosangela posed, the judge had a conflict of interest, so he, in real life, would not be able to judge his son. Jesus said "I judge no man," which is, in a sense, recusing Himself. I just thought that was an interesting coincidence. Rosangela's question has the implicit assumption that sin has no bad results upon the criminal apart from retribution, which is the problem with the analogy. In our world, sin has a limited impact, because, indeed, a criminal remains unpunished until he is tried in a court and found guilty. However, that is not the case outside of God's grace. That is to say, God's grace serves as a type of umbrella whereby sin does not immediately result in death, as it should. When that grace is removed, as in the judgment of the wicked, then sin will result in death, as it must. Sin brings its own condemnation, which is death. quote:
The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. ... God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. (DA 764)
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13992
06/08/05 12:03 AM
06/08/05 12:03 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Thomas said: quote:
Rosangela
I do think I understood the question. But you forgot to tell that the boy that was killed was the son of the judge, you forgot to tell that the girl that was raped was the daughter of the judge. You forgot to tell that they where the criminals brother and sister. You also forgot to tell that the criminal is you and me. Now what do you think about the question?
I think this starts putting things into perspective. You see the Father’s desire and purpose is to save all his children, not just some; instead of looking to find fault.
The question is: can we forgive? With what judgment you judge you shall be judged.
1Ti 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13993
06/08/05 12:55 AM
06/08/05 12:55 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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So if the daughter forgave, and if the son that was slain forgave, would not the father forgive?
By the way, where did the daughter and slain son obtain the spirit of forgiveness?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13994
06/08/05 04:01 PM
06/08/05 04:01 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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OK, the judge forgives or, better yet, does not even judge; the prisoner is just released! The dead brother and sister forgive. (By the way, how did the slain brother forgive if he was dead?) What about the lad? Will he have a correct notion of how harmful were his actions? Will he never kill and rape again just because the judge was so nice? And what about all the other young lads of the city? Will they have a correct notion of right and wrong? Will they think that the law should be obeyed? Will they learn that crime has bad consequences? What will become of the city which has such a nice judge?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13995
06/08/05 05:36 PM
06/08/05 05:36 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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This is getting complicated.
Crime has bad consequences, in the scheme of a non-grace environment, which results in the death of the one commiting the crime, not in a disconnected way like here on earth, but as "the inevitable result of sin."
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13996
06/08/05 06:00 PM
06/08/05 06:00 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Rosangela Ok, so the judge in his anger at the death of his son and abuse of his daughter goes to the entire length of the law, condemning his criminal son to the death sentence. Entierly after the law and as a no doubts left message to the entire city. If the judge sentences his own son to death for such a crime, what will he do to criminals who are not his family? Every other evildoer emigrates to another city. The city ends up a very peacefull police state. Follows the hard question. Saying so, you have just signed your own death sentence. There is an example of almost exactly this happening in the 2nd book of samuel chapter 12 where it says: quote:
1 The LORD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4 "Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him."
5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, "As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this deserves to die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity."
7 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man!
And yet, God is not like that for in the following verses it says:
quote:
13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD."
Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die."
The crime deserved death but God deals in mercy.
/Thomas
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13997
06/08/05 07:39 PM
06/08/05 07:39 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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What is the correct procedure for the judge to follow, which will give to the lad a correct notion of the gravity of his crimes, so that he does not ever want to commit them again, and which will show to the other lads that crime has bad consequences? It is just to forgive and release him? No! This won't produce the desired effect. The judge must condemn him. This is the correct procedure for a righteous judge to follow. But what if that judge loves his son so much that he submits himself to the penalty, and dies in the place of the lad, letting him go free? This will give a correct notion of the gravity of the crime, and at the same time will give a correct notion of the enormity of the love of the father. This will move the heart of the lad, so that he will never want to repeat his crimes, and because the judge executed the penalty on himself, he can freely forgive the lad, letting him go free, and be forever remembered as a righteous judge.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13998
06/08/05 10:45 PM
06/08/05 10:45 PM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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To equate civil jurisprudence as equal to the Ways of God is what has always created Inquisitions, Star-chambers and man-made theocracies; man loves to pretend to act like the Almighty.
"For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
"For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8,9
That's why unsaved magistrates must rule over the unsaved (Caeser) and saved folks treat each other as family (in faults or in correctness) among the church. Mixing the two is rank chaos.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13999
06/09/05 02:11 AM
06/09/05 02:11 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Tom, I would not worry about it getting complicated, for you know the enemy has made it so, but I think we might be getting to the issue of this topic; “the salvation of the wicked”. quote:
R: OK, the judge forgives or, better yet, does not even judge; the prisoner is just released! The dead brother and sister forgive. (By the way, how did the slain brother forgive if he was dead?)
You see the king or judge or father doesn’t own a jail and never needed one. He has no prisoners and never had any. The prison is owned by the enemy who kidnapped the king’s family and has had such influence over them to make them see their own father as an enemy and wrathful God. That their father is out to kill them because they were not faithful to him; that his justice is just such as could never forgive such transgression. (By the way, the slain brother forgave as he was dying…remember he said: “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”.)
quote:
R: What about the lad? Will he have a correct notion of how harmful were his actions? Will he never kill and rape again just because the judge was so nice?
Well you see the one whom the lad slew was the one who came to show him that what the enemy said was not true, and that his father loved him, but he clapped his ears and would not hear and slew him. He will continue to do this until he either dies, or some other of God’s sons and daughters that have been set free from the enemy reach out to him to show him that his father is not such as he thinks of him, but that he loves him, and the son whom he slew gave his life in seeking to save him. That he has been forgiven; and the father is yearning to set him free from the enemy of his soul and the prison that he is in, in which he is sure to die; and to give him life eternal.
Will he believe and turn away from the enemy of souls that has trapped him, and let the father save him? As we presented the story he repented, right. Now if repentance means anything, than I think the realization of the above truth, how he killed him who came to save him is enough to mortify anyone, but to know that the same one forgave him certainly breaks the spirit in such a way as to bring forth life as nothing else could.
quote:
R: And what about all the other young lads of the city? Will they have a correct notion of right and wrong? Will they think that the law should be obeyed? Will they learn that crime has bad consequences?
What about other lads of the prison land, will they have a correct notion of right and wrong? No, not too well, at least not until they too get to hear the truth. For you see, in this prison land, the enemy of souls keeps the law always before them fraudulently. He continually tells them that having broken the law, now their ex-king, father, and judge will certainly destroy them for he is so unflinching in his exaction and can by no means forgive. Will they learn that crime has bad consequences? Why, that is all that they know, and know no way out, so they keep doing more crime in their effort at self preservation, which in turn only imprisons them more and so the fetters are forged more and more. So the law of life which the king had given to safeguard them from this enemy so they would not fall into his hands, now is used by the enemy in such a way to keep them in the prison of fear.
For those who have heard something of the king’s goodness, the enemy of souls has devised religious notions of such a nature, like the king has planned it all, and had his obedient son killed to satisfy his righteousness, so that now its ok, only they must stop being bad and become good and then the king will forgive them… or, since their sin is paid for now, just do your best and don’t worry for the rest… or…or…or…anything as long as he can keep them in his prison land, so that they would not call upon the father to save them. He even provided nice stained glass window houses for them…
Others he keeps in bondage with such “righteousness of the law”… oh my, it’s big business… police… lawyers… prosecutors… magistrates… spies… guards… armies… navies… intelligence… securities… governments… politics…and I am sure you can think of more; why I think more than half of prison land is employed in this field of playing God; the God of this world.
quote:
R: What will become of the city which has such a nice judge?
Why here I do not know which city you mean. Is it prison land? Or, is it New Jerusalem?
In prison land they know no nice judge, justice is far from them, and they live in constant fear. They are always in danger, whether from criminals or from the justice-government system. It’s hard to know sometime which is which. … I tell you it’s coming awful close to wailing and gnashing of teeth.
For those in New Jerusalem, why there is joy and peace such as prison land will never know, and they love their king, father, judge, and savior who has saved them with such great salvation. And the law of love is again to them life. There is none there to accuse, because they live the law of love, joy, forgiveness, peace, longsuffering, patience. … What more can I say for the pen fails me to convey yet what is in store, but God has revealed it to us.
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