Of course not, Thomas. It's the way you said it that could stand improvement.

I would have read it and quoted the entire piece into the thread as I have done before at times, only that this morning I did not have the time. Therefore I hoped that it would be acceptable just to mention the chapters which I would othervise have quoted. As I obviously was wrong, I will have to make it proper next time.
And by the way, I wonder if it isnt the letters to the Hebrews and of James that most deal with the questions raised in this thread, at least in the NT...

/Thomas

R: Now let’s imagine this world with just the natural results of sin and no judicial punishments. Does adultery bring suffering? Yes! Homicides? Yes! Theft? Yes! But just imagine how this world would be like if there were no judicial punishments.

John B: Why I do not know why there should be any problem, I guess this world would just live forever, since you do not think that sin is deadly. Or maybe you realize that there would be pretty much sudden destruction.

Tom: This brings out the crux of the matter, I think. Rosangela seems to think that sin has not natural results, that it would just go on its merry way forever if God did not intervene. Others of us believe that it is only because God *is* intervening right now and at every moment that sin can go on at all. It's when God *quits* intervening that sin comes to an end.

That's His punishment and His wrath. God allows the penalty of sin to occur, which is death.

Tom, that is one aspect, but what more the concept of arbitrary judicial punishment from God invokes should be sobering.

Such a concept ignores the fact that Christ’s death defeated the “accuser of the brethren”, and that he and his angels were cast out of heaven then. Heaven is rejoicing; no accusations can enter heaven any more. Woe unto the earth. This is very vital in understanding the reclaiming of God’s righteousness in heaven.

Now where no accuser is there can be no prosecution, no indictment, no verdict, no condemnation, and no punishment. If there is no one to accuse, how do you get a court case? What people have to do then is make God himself the fault finder, inquisitor, accuser, prosecutor, judge, and executor. Now, what consideration would that bring? Is that not altogether arbitrary?

What would the wicked need to be saved from in such a scenario? In light of discussions here, few seem to be concerned about being saved from sin, and the overall thrust of discussion is rotating at being saved from God’s judgment/punishment.

I suppose that if the picture of God’s court is such as that he is the fault finder, inquisitor, accuser, prosecutor, judge, and executor; then there is very much reason to be concerned about that, and the problem of sin pales in comparison. Obviously those who think so fail to realize that such a concept of justice is sin.

True enough, John.

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Originally posted by John Boskovic:
[QB] Tom, that is one aspect, but what more the concept of arbitrary judicial punishment from God invokes should be sobering.QB]

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I think you have a typo here, or I am missing something.

Thanks Ikan, I guess that was not clear.

I was agreeing with the point Tom brought out, but trying to expand on it.

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Tom: This brings out the crux of the matter, I think. Rosangela seems to think that sin has not natural results; that it would just go on its merry way forever if God did not intervene. Others of us believe that it is only because God *is* intervening right now and at every moment that sin can go on at all. It's when God *quits* intervening that sin comes to an end.

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So, that is so, but what more, the concept of arbitrary judicial punishment of God invokes, should be sobering. In other words, it should wake one up to serious thought as to what kind of a court they presuppose, seeing there is no accuser in heaven.

Does this clarify?

As crystal in a sunbeam, John

How do you think this unusual concept of condemnation from a heavenly accuser came about? Is it because we are used to earthly accusers among the religious?

Tom,

Not all parables deal with all aspects of truth. Which is the parable which speaks of the death of Christ as necessary for salvation?

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It's when God *quits* intervening that sin comes to an end.

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It’s exactly the opposite! It’s when God intervenes that sin comes to an end.

"In the destruction of the old world by a flood of waters, God gave evidence that men had exceeded the bounds prescribed through His long-sufferance. And whenever a people, with a 'thus saith the Lord' to guide them, presume upon His mercy, and go decidedly counter to His will, despising all His warnings, they finally exceed the limits of grace. Then God interferes and vindicates the honor of His law. He represses the increase of unrighteousness, by blotting out the race who become indifferent to His law which had been made known to the inhabitants of the Noatic [world]. Thus the Lord reveals to the whole human family that it is possible to go so far in sin and disgraceful transgression of His law, that it becomes necessary for Him to limit human life, and interpose in His wrath to prevent their spoiling one another in continual disobedience and defiance of His law. {21MR 65.2}

"The long-suffering of God is wonderful. Long does justice wait while mercy pleads with the sinner. But 'righteousness and judgment are the establishment of his throne' (Ps. 97:2, margin). . . . The world has become bold in transgression of God's law. Because of His long forbearance, men have trampled upon His authority. . . . But there is a line beyond which they cannot pass. The time is near when they will have reached the prescribed limit. Even now they have almost exceeded the bounds of the long-suffering of God, the limits of His grace, the limits of His mercy.The Lord will interpose to vindicate His own honor, to deliver His people, and to repress the swellings of unrighteousness."{AG 371.2}

John,

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Now where no accuser is there can be no prosecution, no indictment, no verdict, no condemnation, and no punishment. If there is no one to accuse, how do you get a court case?.

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“Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, ... and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Who is the accuser in this case?

Who is the accuser in this case?

You and me, each one writes his own book. It is not anybody else's opinion about you or me.