R: Tom,

Not all parables deal with all aspects of truth. Which is the parable which speaks of the death of Christ as necessary for salvation?

T: I don't know what your point is here. It has been my assertion that the purpose of Christ's ministry, including His life, death and resurrection, was to reveal the character of God. There's plenty of parables that do that. Everything Jesus did and said was about that. On the other hand, there is nothing in Christ's ministry, whether by word or deed, or parable or not, which suggests that Christ had to die in order to appease God's wrath or to enable Him to forgive.

In fact, Christ taught the opposite. The parable of the 10,000 talents, the king freely forgave. In the parable of the prodigal son, there was never a time when the father had not forgiven him. Christ freely forgave the paralytic, the woman caught in adultery, Simon who took let her into sin -- everybody in fact who was willing to be forgiven.

There's no hint anywhere in Christ's ministry that any payment was necessary for forgiveness to take place. However, the revelation of God's character is prevelant throughout.


Old Tom: It's when God *quits* intervening that sin comes to an end.

R: It’s exactly the opposite! It’s when God intervenes that sin comes to an end.

T: This seems to be a crucial distinction in how we see things. Is sin benign, or is it deadly? If it is benign, then God is deadly, and we need to be saved from Him. If sin is deadly, then we need to be saved from it. Which is it? Each one will need to decide for him(her)self.

"The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the rightoues, will slay the wicked" (DA 108). This tells me that God does the same thing, reveals His glory, and that that one thing has two results -- life or death.

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Sin is corrupting in its nature. One man infected with its deadly leprosy may communicate the taint to thousands (2BC 996).

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Man has severed his connection with God, and his soul has become palsied and strengthless by the deadly poison of sin (Upward Look 49)

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Transgression is a serpent with a deadly sting. Grant it no indulgence, for it will imperil the soul (RH 1/3/80)

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The work of Christ in cleansing the leper from his terrible disease is an illustration of His work in cleansing the soul from sin. The man who came to Jesus was "full of leprosy." Its deadly poison had permeated his whole body (ST 10/25/05).

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"Old Tom: It's when God *quits* intervening that sin comes to an end.

R: It’s exactly the opposite! It’s when God intervenes that sin comes to an end."

Intervenes for who? When?
Intervention for the wicked by God keeps them alive today, but He will stop this intervention; intervention for the redeemed will in the Time of Trouble will safeguard them from chaos and evil men.

So what type of intervention are we talking about??


Roseangela Since you have discovered several times that English words mean something more than what you thought they meant ( and I say this with all respect as a trilingual myself), in the dictionary I suggest that we research "intervene".

There are 5 definitions, 9 synonyms and 11 possible sources of other similiar expressions.

Basically it means:
1. to come between

2. to take place between events or points of time,

3. to come between as an influence, as in order to modify, settle, or hinder some action, (whether good or evil)

4. to come or be in between as something unnecessary or irrelevant, like the term heretic among christian discussions

5. a lawyer's term,to come in as a third party to a suit, to protect one's own interests


It is a multi-purpose word and contextual application is essential.

So, to be on the safe side, I looked up how a Victorian lady, our Sister White, using a much more "cultured" English than we do today, used "intervene". She appeared to us only numbers 1 through 3.

There are 99 usages of all the tenses of the word by her in her writings.

Then usage that Tom is using is "to come between as an influence, as in order to modify, settle, or hinder some action". He, and I, and John B., I assume, see God as hindering Satan and his Sin disease
from utterly destroying humanity. When God stops His intervention for humanity (not His children!), Satan has fuller control and the "wages are paid", the sting of sin is fully toxic, and utterly lethal. Also when God intervenes to modify the earth into the New Earth by recreation, taking the void of the

Below is an excellent expose on almost every aspect of this topic, written by the SOP a full 8 years after the horrors of Minneapolis. Here intervention is very clearly uncovered, both Satan's meddling intervention and God's protective intervention:

All emphasis is mine; an * is placed before a set of words where one type of intervention (whether God's or Satan's) is portrayed.

"An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren {E.J.} Waggoner and {A.T.} Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan *succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy *prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory (Rev18:1) was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree *kept away from the world. {1SM 234.6}
The law of ten commandments is not to be looked upon as much from the prohibitory side, as from the mercy side. Its prohibitions are the sure *guarantee of happiness in obedience. As received in Christ, it works in us the purity of character that will bring joy to us through eternal ages. To the obedient it is a *wall of protection (See my topic "The Perfection of the Law"). We behold in it the goodness of God, who by revealing to men the immutable principles of righteousness, seeks to *shield them from the evils that result from transgression. {1SM 235.1}
We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a [i]change of character[i], and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men *separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. {1SM 235.2}
The law is an expression of God's idea. When we receive it in Christ, it becomes our idea. It lifts us above the power of natural desires and tendencies, above temptations that lead to sin. "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them" (Ps. 119: 165)-- cause them to stumble. {1SM 235.3}
There is no peace in unrighteousness; the wicked are at war with God. But he who receives the righteousness of the law in Christ is in harmony with heaven. "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other" (Ps. 85: 10).--Letter 96, 1896. {1SM 235.4}

An additional thought Rosangela, there is one book that the Lord writes himself. That is the book of the Lamb’s life. Everyone who allows him to ‘justify’ them remains written in the book of his life.

R: Not all parables deal with all aspects of truth. Which is the parable which speaks of the death of Christ as necessary for salvation?

There are two parables that the Lord spoke showing his death:

• The good shepherd who gives his life for the sheep, in the battle with the wolf.
• The king who sent his servants and then his Son whom the wicked husbandmen slew.

These parables show well why and how he died to save us

John,
You and me, the accusers? The sins of the wicked will be brought to light, but this will be against their will. So it's clear they are not accusing themselves.

Roseangela
Let's forget the grammer usages: have you no comment on the EGW quote I posted? It is very illustrative of intervention.

How about your comment on this part:

" We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men *separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death." {1SM 235.2}