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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14040
06/17/05 03:03 AM
06/17/05 03:03 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
I would think that the obvious understanding of this debt is a life of sin, and much of it. Now it seems that all that this sinner did was simply ask for patience, but the king did more; he frankly forgave him. So seems simple enough: looks like all one has to do, is go fall at the king’s mercy and ask forgiveness; How about that?
That's what the publican did: "God, be merciful to me a sinner."
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14041
06/17/05 11:59 AM
06/17/05 11:59 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Seems like the publicans and sinners are getting into the kingdom before...while the religious ones remain outside.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14042
06/17/05 12:05 PM
06/17/05 12:05 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Since I am hoping that we discuss this illustration of the kingdom of heaven a little, and these pages flip things into forgetfulness, I am reposting. quote:
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Mat 18:23-35
In this parable, all that the servant did was implore for mercy, and the king forgave him all that debt, because he had desired him to do so. That is all; no lawyers; no defense attorney; no accuser; no legal wrangle; no claims of someone else paid it for him; no beliefs; just plain reality of debt and dire need.
I would think that the obvious understanding of this debt is a life of sin, and much of it. Now it seems that all that this sinner did was simply ask for patience, but the king did more; he frankly forgave him. So seems simple enough: looks like all one has to do, is go fall at the king’s mercy and ask forgiveness; How about that?
So why did he not remain forgiven? According to the parable it does not say that he got into more debt (sin). No, he did not seem to get into debt again, did he? Seems like he became a “righteous” man. It seems that now he became very much for “justice”, insomuch so that when he met one who owed him (sinned against him) just a little, he took the full course of the law to him.
Now why should the king be upset with that?
What is the meaning of: “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto” this parable?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14043
06/17/05 01:56 PM
06/17/05 01:56 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The king was upset with the servant, whose debt he canceled, because he did not demonstrate the same kindness and generosity to a fellow servant. From this I gather that God expects us to be holy as He is holy, to forgive as He forgives. If we fail or refuse to be Christlike in this lifetime, then in the end we shall incur the wrath of the King. “And there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
The reward of the unprofitable servant is punishment and eternal death – not eternal life. Once we are forgiven and saved we must maintain our salvation status through faith that works by love and purifies the soul. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Phil 2:13. "If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." Isa 1:19, 20.
Matthew
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew
6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Luke
6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Matthew
25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew
22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
Matthew
24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
24:49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,
24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew
25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14044
06/17/05 04:04 PM
06/17/05 04:04 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
The king was upset with the servant, whose debt he canceled, because he did not demonstrate the same kindness and generosity to a fellow servant.
Yes that seems obvious, and we should also discuss why this is so important to the king; even more than the whole debt.
Now what I also question is, why the king would not be happy if the servant demonstrated the king’s “supposed righteousness/justice”? After all, does he not want us to be like him?
Why should the king like the one and not the other, when it is all of him?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14045
06/17/05 04:08 PM
06/17/05 04:08 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Could this request be the invitation to cease from our righteousness which is wrath, to his righteousness which is of grace?
Could it be that the servant suffered his own wrath because he did not partake of the kings kindness and generosity?
With what judgment you judge, you will be judged.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14046
06/17/05 04:37 PM
06/17/05 04:37 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
Now what I also question is, why the king would not be happy if the servant demonstrated the king’s “supposed righteousness/justice”? After all, does he not want us to be like him?
The King would be happy. But if we refuse to be like Him then we shall be punished and destroyed in the lake of fire. Perfection is not a "request" - it's a command.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14047
06/17/05 05:18 PM
06/17/05 05:18 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
I would think that the obvious understanding of this debt is a life of sin, and much of it. Now it seems that all that this sinner did was simply ask for patience, but the king did more; he frankly forgave him.
This says something wonderful about God. He doesn't require that conditions be formally met, but merely looks at the desire of the heart. If we don't know enough to ask for forgiveness, God doesn't care. He's see what the heart wants, and meets that desire, even if the head doesn't know what it should be asking for.
Is the parable teaching us that we should forgive conditionally? That is, we should forgive someone else's debt, but if we see them not forgiving someone else, then we should rescind our forgiveness. If this is what God does, and we should be like Him, then is this what we should do as well?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14048
06/17/05 06:07 PM
06/17/05 06:07 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Mike: The King would be happy. But if we refuse to be like Him then we shall be punished and destroyed in the lake of fire. Perfection is not a "request" - it's a command.
I need to rephrase my question.
Why was the king not happy that the servant demonstrated the king’s “supposed righteousness/justice/wrath”?
If the king wants us to be like him, why was he upset when he was like him in the other (wrath) aspect? Or, is that how the king is in that other aspect? Is it perhaps that the king is not like that, and that it was the wrath of the servant applied?
Is the perfection of the king in grace?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14049
06/17/05 06:09 PM
06/17/05 06:09 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Is it that the king does not like/appreciate a justice that is outside the fruits of his spirit?
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