James you are revealing your reason to follow the Lord -- so that you won't go thru the lake of fire??? Are you trying to save yourself? That ain't going to work no matter how "obedient" you manage to be by your own strenght, you will still fall short of the mark and end up in the lake of fire as Jesus said His baptism is -- of fire. Everyone will go through the lake of fire(2nd death = repentence) whether they went into it early -- before the judgment day -- or later.

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


You know, there's other reasons to follow the Lord. Not because we first loved Him, but because He Helkuo(drag see usage in BLB) us into harsh discipline.

There's a law in Moses that prophecizes of those the Lord has helkuo & discipline early and it is related to the law of Jubilee.

Exodus 21:1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them. 2. If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. 5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever."

I don't have time to expand on this one and I'll leave it for your meditation and potential later discussion. But this is what happened to the first fruits company...they did not go out at the first yearly Jubile sabbath and remain permanent servants(slaves) to the Lord -- their Master.

So, the same thing happens to all men: lake of fire then life as usual, everyone actually lives forever. If I do good, it is not enough; if I do bad, it is as it should be because I'm inherently not good enough. OK ...

Then, why even try to be good? That's my point and my question. Why preach the gospel? Why even think about God? Why go to Church? Everyone is going to live forever doing what he or she wants to do. Yeah? At least, according to you.

Are you suggesting the lake of fire will take away my desire to do evil? Well then, so much the better. All I have to do is be myself and follow the natural inclinations of my heart. BEFORE the lake of fire, I would be ruthless and lascivious. AFTER the lake of fire, I would be holy and pure. In other words, God is responsible for what I did, am doing and will do; he made me so. Is that right?
....
...

Jesus said, "broad is the way that leads to destruction." You said, "the asses not redeemed needed to have their neck broken(destroyed)."

That makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is how these destroyed ones eventually have eternal life along with the redeemed ones. Did I misunderstand?


The unredeemed asses don't work off their debt; they are killed.

In the law, if a Hebrew slave does not want to leave his master, he gets his ear pierced and remains a slave forever. He never goes free.

All of us have been bought back by Christ. But some of us love our old master and want to stay. The law says such slaves are slaves forever, never having the freedom that Christ offers.

That doesn't match the "everyone will eventually be saved" concept.

Furthermore, the "work to pay off their debt" sound rather legalistic. When one breaks the law, how does he pay that off?

That's new for me. Do you have a clear text that says that?

That is also news to me too, therefore, I also would like to see a clear text that says that.

Second Death

Asygo & Daryl, tell me which death is Paul dying every day when he said "I die daily"(1Cr 15:31)? Definitely not the first death = mortality.

Paul died the second death daily meaning he submitted to the will of the Lord every day. Repentance is turning from our own ways(or own will) and submitting to the will of the Lord. Repentance or submission is really the same thing. This is what baptism symbolizes…death to the old man and resurrection to the new man.

Besides that their’s two other ways that the Bible presents the two deaths by which says the same thing but in a different ways. The first is implied in the NT. It is simple and similar to the two births – 1st is a natural/physical birth and 2nd is a spiritual birth. So it is the same with death, there’s a natural/physical death and the second being a spiritual death.

The second way we find the Bible says is that Adam’s sin brought death(mortality = 1st death) to all mankind (Rom 5:12 “ Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, ON WHICH [eph ho] all sinned.” Concordant translation). Here eph ho means “on which” that is the same as “therefore”. So mankind was imputed mortality(death) because of Adam’s sin. The man in Jesus parable in Mat 18:23-25 is Adam who had a very large debt. The Bible reckoned sin as a debt. We see this in the two Lord’s prayer where sin and debt is used interchangeably. We see this also in the law of Moses(Ex 22). So since this man in Mat 18 didn’t have the means to pay his debt, the Lord’s judgment was that he was sold with his wife and all his children to pay his debt. Mat 18: 25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

Wait a minute…is Jesus contradicting His own law found in Deut 24:16 and confirmed in Eze 18:20 which says the children will not be judge or pay for their father’s sin? No for the Lord often acts his laws on two levels... Globally and individually. So there's two level of judgment – the 1st being globally upon the whole world(all humanity) and the 2nd being on individual.

We see the first level of judgment in Rom 5:12 where Adam’s sin brought mortality to all men, which was equally remedied on a global realm by Jesus righteousness, who was the second Adam, and his action brought life to all men. This is dealing with the first death(mortality) which is a physical and natural death.

Whereas, the second death referred in Rev 20 is the lawful judgment on the level on individuals by which all their sins will be accounted and judged -- v.13 “they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.” This judgment which is given according to the fiery law(Deut 33:2) that proceeds from the Lord’s throne, “burneth with fires”… “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, etc…shall have their part in the lake … which is the second death”. The lake of fire where the people with their sentences are plunge into represents a baptism of fire.

So there’s two kinds of death. The first is mortality, while the second is submitting to the judgment/discipline of God through a baptism of fire. The fire consumes the flesh which purifies the sinner like “a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap”(Mal 3:2) by which will make anyone into the image of God’s character = pure gold.

Christians, like Paul, who submit to this divine judgment during their life, the second death produced by the fiery law at the great white throne has no effect on them because they have already been exposed to that fire daily when Jesus baptised them and had already died that death before. Whereas unbelievers have not yet been exposed to that fire. We see this in the santuary services where only the body of priests had access to the laver and the others not. Their time comes at the judgment at the Great White Throne.

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

....
So, the same thing happens to all men: lake of fire then life as usual, everyone actually lives forever. If I do good, it is not enough; if I do bad, it is as it should be because I'm inherently not good enough. OK ...

Then, why even try to be good? That's my point and my question. Why preach the gospel? Why even think about God? Why go to Church? Everyone is going to live forever doing what he or she wants to do. Yeah? At least, according to you.

Are you suggesting the lake of fire will take away my desire to do evil? Well then, so much the better. All I have to do is be myself and follow the natural inclinations of my heart. BEFORE the lake of fire, I would be ruthless and lascivious. AFTER the lake of fire, I would be holy and pure. In other words, God is responsible for what I did, am doing and will do; he made me so. Is that right?
....
..

Your misundersanding stem that you take all that is written in he Bible literally. It is a spiritual book expressed in literal language but are symbolic showing us shadows of the spiritual reality. The laws are key which the Lord layed the foundation of His plan of salvation. Without going to it and trying to find the meaning of these symbols with other scriptures to first know that foundation, you will be pretty much lost to understand the prophets and what the book of Revelation says by which is also express in symbolic language.

Another help which first brought me to a lot of understanding without knowing the importance of the law was by looking at the Hebrew definition of words which often relay the mind of the Lord about these words.

In this Babylonian world and phylosophy, destroy means like the way you understnd it. Your "capute" -- totally finished or dead forever. However this is not the way the Lord sees and uses this word and we greathly err to read the Bible with the Babylonians definition of words.

Destroy in both the OT['abad] and the NT[apolumi] means both destroy & lost together. Jesus said I came to save the lost[apolumi]". Jesus gave 3 parables of the lost[apolumi] sheep, lost[apolumi] coin, and the prodigal son. All of them were found. I have already given you the many texts in the OT where the Lord said He first destroys and then after he heals. This also lays out the way and mind of the Lord. What He really means to 'destroy' is our ego and thinking we can be little gods and rule in His place which is the definition of AntiChrist. For some this 'destruction' will lead to the 2nd death(repentance) in this lifetime before we die that 1st death. Most will not and will die like Saul or like the unbelievers in the land of Canaan which this same scene is expressed in Rev 19 as the nations being slain by the sword of Jesus tongue after His 2nd ressurection. Really this means that Christ(Head link to the body of firstfruit at that time) will be preaching the word of Christ and many will be converted and their old man will be slain by the double edge sword of the Spirit.

However both manner of death(Saul = the Church and the unbelievers/nations in Canaan) is with a weapon of the Spirit which foreshadow spiritual realities which will lead to the 2nd death(repentance). Jesus had victory over that 1st death. So that's a non-issue -- "death where is your sting?" and that's why Jesus view the 1st death as only a sleep, for all will ressurect and He will finish the work "of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."(Act 3:21)

This reflects those like Paul, Peter, John, and anyone of us that considers ourselves as perpetual slaves –servants. Notice their ears are anchored to the door of their master. The Israelites who were to be a nation of priests were to put the laws on their doors. They were the ones to teach the laws to the nations. In the Lord’s judicial system, individual that broke the law had to pay what the judges told them to pay according to the directives of the Law. If they didn’t have the means to pay, they were sold as slaves but only until their debt was paid. But every slaves were given a time of rest from working their debt off every weekly Sabbath, and every yearly Sabbath. This is call forbearance. Their debt was not erased and had to resume their work after the sabbath period was over. This was a mandatory that the slaves were to be released during those Sabbath days or year and during the Feasts Sabbaths. This is something the Isreaelites never did and that's why they never understood the Jubilee. They treated their slaves as slaves like the Babylonian treated theirs. They mistreated them and tricked them to slaves for them longer and few were taught the laws of the Lord or got converted.

But in the law, the slaves that chose to stay to work for their master, is a prophecy of the first fruits and what will happen at the 2nd coming of Christ at the end of the first end of the weekly millennium. Them returning to their master means that they have tasted how good are His laws and His ways and came to agree with them. Having their ears nail to the door symbolized that their ears are open and can hear the Laws of their Master who is Christ Jesus.

Show me what law you are referring to. What you say is not what the law of Jubilee says. Not all are redeemed and those that are not are to pay their own debt, until it is paid off. If the debt is so great that it is not paid off by the end of the 49th year -- the Jubilee, their debt is totally erased. Not debt is too great that cannot be erased at the Great Jubille. The Law disctates that ALL is restored back to their inheritance.

Everyone is not saved at the same time. There are 3 harvests in the law which all require different process of harvesting and preparation: the first being the barley company(firstfruit), the second the Wheat company(Church), a the third the grapes company (the unbelievers).

They will work for one of the royal priesthood(firstfruits or maybe also one that constitute the church) who are responsible to teach him the laws of the Lord. How the Lord will formulate the exact specifics of the work in His judgment -- I do not know but for sure the verdict will meet the offence made-- "an eye for an eye". This is the legal procedure expressed in Ex 22:3 and the other laws which defines the way the Lord will judge and bring back the lawful order in the land.

It is not legalistic for all sins needs to be accounted for and restitution needs to be properly made to all the victims. In His judgment, the thief that has to pay 2x, or 4x or 5x the sum of what is stolen according to what the law specifies, will learn not to steal again. This is how the laws of the Lord will eventually get written in their heart and restore the sinner.

Our legal system in the land does not reflect the mind of the Lord nor His ways. It does not bring restitution to the victim nor does it restore the law breaker. This is the fault of us Christians for having not studied the ways of the Lord written in His laws and bringing these into our land. We have much guilt upon us and we are very responsible for the level of sins that is on this world today for not teaching or bringing the laws of the Lord in our land that would have turn this world into a much different place.

Your misundersanding stem that you take all that is written in he Bible literally. It is a spiritual book expressed in literal language but are symbolic showing us shadows of the spiritual reality. The laws are key which the Lord layed the foundation of His plan of salvation. Without going to it and trying to find the meaning of these symbols with other scriptures to first know that foundation, you will be pretty much lost to understand the prophets and what the book of Revelation says by which is also express in symbolic language.

Another help which first brought me to a lot of understanding without knowing the importance of the law was by looking at the Hebrew definition of words which often relay the mind of the Lord about these words.

In this Babylonian world and phylosophy, destroy means like the way you understnd it. Your "capute" -- totally finished or dead forever. However this is not the way the Lord sees and uses this word and we err to read the Bible with Babylonians definition of words.

Destroy in both the OT['abad] and the NT[apolumi] means both destroy & lost together. Jesus said I came to save the lost[apolumi]". Jesus gave 3 parables of the lost[apolumi] sheep, lost[apolumi] coin, and the prodigal son. All of them were found. I have already given you the many texts in the OT where the Lord said He first destroys and then after he heals. This also lays out the way and mind of the Lord. What He really needs to first destroys is our ego and thinking we can be little gods and rule in His place which is the definition of AntiChrist. For some this destruction will lead to the 2nd death(repentance) in this lifetime before we die that 1st death. Most will not and will die like Saul or like the unbelievers in the land of Canaan which is the nations after the 2nd coming express in Rev 19 who are slain by the sword of Jesus tongue. However both manner of death is with a weapon of the Spirit which foreshadow spiritual realities which will lead to the 2nd death(repentance). Jesus had victory over that 1st death. So that's a non-issue -- "death where is your sting" and that's why Jesus view the 1st death as only a sleep, for all will ressurect and He will finish the work "of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."(Act 3:21)

This reflects those like Paul, Peter, John, and anyone of us that considers ourselves as perpetual slaves –servants. Notice their ears are anchored to the door of their master. The Israelites who were to be a nation of priests were to put the laws on their doors. They were the ones to teach the laws to the nations. In the Lord’s judicial system, individual that broke the law had to pay what the judges told them to pay according to the directives of the Law. If they didn’t have the means to pay, they were sold as slaves but only until their debt was paid. But every slaves were given a time of rest from working their debt off every weekly Sabbath, and every yearly Sabbath. This is call forbearance. Their debt was not erased, but they had a rest and it was mandatory that the slaves were to be released during those Sabbath days or year and during the Feasts Sabbaths. The slaves that chose to stay to work for their master is a prophecy of the first fruits and what will happen at the 2nd coming of Christ at the end of the first end of the weekly millennium. Them returning to their master means that they have tasted how good are His laws and came to agree with them. Having their ears nail to the door symbolized that their ears are open and can hear the Laws of their Master who is Christ Jesus.

Show me what law you are referring to. What you say is not what the law of Jubilee says. Not all are redeemed and those that are not are to pay their own debt.

Everyone is not saved at the same time. There are 3 harvests in the law which all require different process of harvesting and preparation: the first being the barley company(firstfruit), the second the Wheat company(Church), a the third the grapes company (the unbelievers).
They work for one of the royal priesthood(firstfruits or maybe also one that constitute the church) who are responsible to teach him the laws of the Lord. The law of Jubilee and other texts shows many will have to work off their dedt. This is the legal procedure expressed in Ex 22:3 and the other laws which defines the way the Lord will judge and bring back the lawful order in the land.

It is not legalistic for all sins needs to be accounted for and restitution needs to be made to all the victims. In His judgment, the thief that has to pay 2x, or 4x or 5x the sum of what is stolen according to what the law specifies, and this will teach the thief not to steal again. This is how the laws of the Lord will get written in their heart and restore the sinner.

Our judicial system in the land does not reflect the mind of the Lord nor His ways. It does not bring restitution to the victim nor does it restore the law breaker. This is the fault of us Christians for having not studied the ways of the Lord written in His laws and bringing these into our land. We have much guilt upon us and we are very responsible for the level of sins that is manifested in this world today for not teaching or bringing the laws of the Lord in our land that would have turn this world into a much different place.

I think my post after yours will answer some of your question.

What's the point of doing right or good if we are all going to be saved? The ones that do most wrongs will have a greater debt to pay than the one that did wrong less. The one that partakes of the first ressurection will reign with Christ for 1000 year and will minister to the others for the other 47000 years whereas the others will have to pay for all their debt(sin) towards others.

Despite of this difference, it is not something an individual can choose. The Lord chooses who will remain vessels of destruction or who will become a vessels for His glory (Rom 9). So the firstfruits are chosen and will go through harsh discipline before the laws will be written on their heart.

Regardless if your inheritance is part of the firstfruit, or part of the Church or part of the unbelievers. Everyone will go through the same process depicted in the 3 Feasts Harvest. The laws are written on our heart via discipline, judgment and corrections which is also known as the bastism of fire. It is a hard process because it burns the flesh.

Is it better to be first to receive the inheritance than to be the last group? I have no idea because the Lord did say in one of His parables that the last will be first, and the first will be last. I don't know if that has anything to do with this. All I know that "all things works together". So there's no room for ondescending the unbelievers or elevating the firstfruit. Their salvation is never been based on their merits and what group they end being in has nothing to do with what you did. It all has to do with whom the Lord has shown mercy to first.(Rom 9)