Do you think christian rock is "evil"? If "yes", why?


I came across this on another site, makes you think...

http://www.av1611.org/crock.html

As an ex rock and roll musician, who has worked with the most revered musicians in the world (Ozzy, Stevie Ray Vaughn Scorpions etc etc etc) In know where that power comes from.

After being lead out of that world, immediately the church set out to recruit me as their 'spokesman' for the youth to stay in church. They used all of their influence to divide our congregation and bring in the influence of this spirit.

I find it interesting that the influence of the 'priests' of Egypt settled into Northern Africa and we took slaves from that region to establish our country and these same men with their Egyptian rhythms influenced the music of New Orleans which became rock and roll.

That means the rhythms of Rock and roll comes from Egypt.

Now we bring that into our churches?

What would you say about the meaning and purpose behind this song...

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/T...825688700015DA1

That was an interesting study that I quoted in my previous post.

Here is another same aged post from that other site that speaks to this subject differently:

What about our own so-called "sanctified" music from our SDA Hymnal? This latest quote says that it was also frowned upon when it was first introduced.

I was also told that our hymns were orginally considered inappropiate because they used the same tune as used in bars.

What, therefore, is the difference between the two?

I have done major research on this subject in my life.

As a professional sound engineer and musician I have seen the effects of every type of music.

What is it that makes even Christians get swept away in music?

I have seen Seventh Day Adventist men raise their hands in the air and weep over music with questionable lyrics just because the band claims to be Christian and the music is 'touching their heart'.

Satan was the leader of the Choir in heaven and had the golden pipes, he has orchestrated this worlds allurements to satisfy his desires and motivations on this planet, so what makes us think we have the capacity to overcome this temptation on our own? Especially when everyone defends this music as if they 'know' what is good for them.

The study of 'gospel' music is very interesting.

The influences came directly from pagan worship ceremonies handed down through men forced to submit to the so called Christian church. Forced to leave their home and submit to a god they did not know. These slaves transferred their rhythms to their new religion and these Negro Spiritual songs became gospel music.

Formed under the most hateful duress this musical format was satanically directed by hateful laws and prejudice such as it being against the law for a black man to play any other key on the piano than black. So when they were forced only to play the black keys it forced them to create new songs within this formulation which directly resulted int the Pentatonic (5 note) scale which is the blues scale that rock and roll was formed from.

Men who would not submit in their hearts to the religion being forced upon them took the rhythms and created new forms of music. First Jazz, then Blues and these songs took on a completely different tone in defiance to the forced religion.

Within a very short period of time the evil use of men to do our dirty work had completely reshaped the landscape of our national identity through popular culture. But an interesting situation arose. 'Gospel' music was seen as Holy after a few generations even though it had a form taken directly from paganism, but at the same time the new forms of music which made no pretense of being anything righteous started to clash as if warring in righteousness. This is a Satanic battle on every front but it was made to look like righteousness taking on wickedness.

Now many years in the future, after many gospel singers became celebrity (Arretha Franklin to Whitney Houston) this form of music has completely amalgamated into popular christian culture.

But that is not the end of it. The music once considered openly 'evil' such as Jazz and Blues with men selling their souls to the devil as one of the popular iconic illustrations, now evolves into what is known as rock and roll and men as rebellious as they come becoming the most powerful men in popular culture, influencing every known avenue of entertainment on our planet.

This is the same format of music that someone who claims to be somewhat converted uses to write 'new christian' music, and it becomes very popular and we are letting this into our minds and sanctuary to meet with God?

It does not belong in the church, but I have been told I have no right to contend with it by our leaders. It seems to me I have every right to contend with it since I am one who was saved from it's pit.

Let me give an illustration that might get misunderstood but I will try to convey they point.

The subtle discrepancies are what is alarming.

There is a song that is in every modern hymnal except Adventist called 'Majesty'.

In it the words say "Unto Jesus, be all glory power and praise" but Jesus told us in 'the Lord's prayer' to direct our prayers to the Father in heaven in His name. He says to the Father be all glory power and praise but we are directed to give this praise to Jesus in the song.

If we weren't knowledgeable in the word, this song would be dangerous.

"And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; that ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ; being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.”

“For this cause,” Paul says, “I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man; that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.” Ephesians 3:14-19.

How about providing some verifiable evidence, starting with your name and the name of the band or bands you played in. If you don't want to give your name (and I understand why someone would not want to do that), provide the names of some of the band members. Or send me a PM with the info.

****** Staff Edit to remove inappropriate remark ******

The problem is that no one has been able to pinpoint or verify what in the music has good versus bad effects on the brain or body, when they do that then we can say keep this reject that with certainty. Otherwise it will just have to continue in the haphazard way most Churches do now.

It seems that if you are not the orginator of the post or dont like its content you tend to take issue with the poster rather than the post, you may want to take a kinder way that is more considerate of others.

****** Staff Edit to remove this part of the direct response from the now edited quoted post. ******

You want names? How about Tim Howard from Merle Haggard's band 'The Strangers' who I played with for two years, and who called me asking me to rejoin the band last night and who has been asking me to record with him again almost every month since I first quit years ago. He wants me in the band again so badly he would reschedule his tour for me.

The band I was on tour with Great White was called 'Balance & the Bridge'. We were 'alternative' before the term was even invented. We had a recording contract with Arista Records and did several live shows on syndicated college radio and sold a respectable amount of recordings before the age of internet.

The band I was on different tours with Blue Oyster Cult and Quiet Riot and Dokken was 'the Steve Olson Band' with the best guitarist in Alaska (now living in New Orleans)

I played on MTV with a band called 'Deployer' and came in second on the video talent search in 1985.

How about my manager Stacy DeMagio from Columbia records who got me connected with Judas Priest who I went on tour with for two tours as a sound engineer.

How about my very good friend Gus Zadra who is currently the lead guitarist for Denis De Young from Styx? How about Tommy Shaw who I worked with in Damn Yankees? How about Jim LaFrano my drummer for years who is cousin of the Pannozo brothers from Styx?

How about the Union I used to be a member of, IATSE the International Alliance of Theatrical and Stage Hand employees where I started my career as a sound engineer for the 'CATS' Broadway musical.

How about Sharon Osborne who gave me my first big break as an audio engineer when she saw me playing with my band 'Real Steel' on tour in Colorado Springs while she was managing Lita Ford. She said she 'loved our sound'.

How about the seven major Production companies I've been monitor engineer for, including 'NAFF productions', 'Top of the World Productions' and 'Power Sound' who I worked for any band I wanted to for almost two decades.

I was in the House band at "Cheap Charlies" in Fairbanks when REO Speed Wagon came into the club to jam with my band.

I was recording at Price's Metro recording studios in Minneapolis when I met Bad Finger and the guys from Bon Jovie.

I was on tour with Anvil and Paul DeAnno the original singer for Iron Maiden.

One of my best friends from High School married the drummer from Aldo Nova Danny Carmassi who is brothers with Denny Carmassi the ex-drummer from Heart and White Snake.

I was on tour with Scorpions, Ozzy, Judas Priest, Damn Yankees, Dokken, Blue Oyster Cult, Crosby, Stills and Nash, Joe Satriani, Jimmy Page, Bad Company, Quiet Riot, Green Day. Etc, Etc.

I've met, hung out with and visited the homes of most of my ex-heroes including Dusty Rhodes from ZZ Top, Billy Joe from Green Day, Paisley Park with Prince here in MN.

I was backstage at Rod Stewart and brought him to the world renowned 'Chilkoot Charlies' in Anchorage AK and the band there recognized me and asked me to join them on stage and Rod Stewart said I was a 'real talent' and his wife got into trouble trying to kiss me.

I was with Stevie Ray Vaughn on his last tour one month before he died and took him to meet my friends at their homes in Alaska. He was having a real hard time kicking the nicotine habit and I used to have to buy Nicorette gum for him after every concert. I was invited to his funeral but was booked at the time.

I lived what people call the 'dream life'. I've been friends with Joe Satriani, Davis Crosby, Ted Nugent, Jimmy Page etc. etc.

I usually don't share the bands I've played in because I don't want to glamorize the scene, but I'll give you all you want to prove the point.

What else would you like to know? You want the name of my father so you can prove that I met Janice Joplin and Chuck Berry as a child while he was riding with the Hell's Angels in the El Forsteroes? He was best friends with Dave Mann, the artist who did all the airbrush paintings for Easy Rider Magazine, my father was the honored guest for the grand opening of the Dave Mann exhibit in his home town. My dad was one of the first 1%-ers.

I have thousands of witnesses for everything I have posted here. I have organized and played in the biggest money making bands in Alaska for ten years as the highest paid bass player in that state. Club owners LOVED me because I made them money. I have tax statements to prove everything. I even played at the 'Board of Trade' in Nome Alaska living in the historic apartment that Wyatt Earp lived in with Josephine as an honored guest for over a year.

I've been noted in magazines and news papers all over America.

You want the names of ex-girl friends? How about just the ones who were in men's magazines?

When I was trying to get out of the scene and once again moved to Minnesota I have been hounded by bands for over ten years since.

I have met and hung out with every one of my childhood heroes and found they are only mortal. I have seen men worshiped and it made me sick.

****** Staff Edit to remove this part of the direct response from the now edited quoted post. ******

After all of that wickedness, I was in front of 5000 people as supporting act for Great White and I heard the Still small voice say "why do you kick against the pricks?".

I was shocked and went home and fasted and prayed for 7 days reading scripture as my only food. I don't know why except that it was the only place my mind was at rest.

On the seventh day of the fast I had read through the old Testament and came to Matthew chapter 12 and read "the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath" and a light warmed my mind and I heard the Still small voice very loudly say "this will lead you home to me" and I was given complete victory over sinful desires and never drank alcohol again.

I have been shown how to apply this same redeeming power to all the sins in my life and I am completely different today than I was then. Thank you Heavenly Father.

Amen!

jamesonofthunder,

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT meant to be inflammatory, although I realize that it may be perceived as such by some. It is simply a statement of my position on the subject, based on experience.

I believe that a bit of history will help with the larger picture. I have been associated with this church (SDA) since my birth in the ‘50s, and for the last 20 or so years as a dedicated, participating member. (That’ll be a shock to some of you--LOL) During this time I have seen many ex-bikers/rockers/gangstas/pimps/drug runners/___/_____/_____ come and go, all claiming to have a message from God, or saying we would do well to listen to them.

John Todd, ex-High Priest of the Illuminati, Steve Marshall and David Meeker of “Grandma and the sea of Glass” fame, Ernie Knoll and his visions, recently mentioned on this forum, the visions of some woman in the ‘80’s who’s name I can’t remember, not to mention all the local “born agains” who claim God speaks to them personally.

It seems some who have come out of some great evil life-style feel that this qualifies them to instruct others who have not, and to do so without reference to any proof or documentation other than their personal conversion story. I reject this position, no offence intended.

So if I seem a bit jaded at your remarkable claims you might understand why.

Time will tell.

I know exactly what you are saying here. I am not against you telling this part of the story either.

We all know that staying a virgin is the best proof of the life of a Christian. I am never to replace that testimony.

I testify that I have come from the dregs and have been redeemed from my shame. I have seen others try to glorify my past and I withdraw from them because of the shame of my past.

But this I can claim in the name of Jesus...

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

48 And he said unto her (Me), Thy sins are forgiven.

I will share something for you to illustrate how my God speaks to me and guides me directly to the truth. You be the judge.

Everyone here has probably read how I was led to the Sabbath by the Holy Spirit. But directly after having that powerful experience in 1995, I was given a dream. This dream was before I had read any of the Spirit of Prophecy mind you.

In the dream I was on board a train. It was dark and ominous. I looked out the window and could see it was heading to an abyss. It wasn't going too fast so I jumped off, and headed west while the train continued to the abyss heading south. (I was raised Catholic and had no real idea about scripture's true message until lead to the Sabbath when I got off the train heading to Perdition)

(After having this dream I read about Mrs. Whites dream of the whole world on board the train heading with lightning speed to perdition and the Holy Spirit confirmed my dream.)

After the train, there was a very long journey across an open field with nothing growing on it and I was without human companionship. (I was so alone after leaving my past life, the church barely wanted anything to do with me because the testimony of my extreme conversion).

On the other side of the field I saw a circus. Tired and lonely I sought refuge there. (After 3 1/2 years of family persecution and trials in the church, one night my Dad in a drunken rage threw me out of my apartment and fired me from the family business and I left in fear of my life. Walking 10 miles across Fairbanks at 1 AM in 30 below weather I was cold and stopped to warm up in the only open business around which was a club I used to play in. The band recognized me and treated me like a long lost local hero and drew me in. That night I was offered a job and place to live making really good money but it required playing on Friday night. Reluctantly I took the job and was flown to Nome AK the next day.)

When I reached the Big Top in the dream I met a woman usher at the door who was beautiful and attracted to me. (My first night in Nome I met a beautiful woman who moved right into my life)

I entered the Big Top and fought my way across the crowd to front row. The master of ceremonies came in and opened a large trunk on the floor and announced "now you shall see the power of god" and wicked fire fell from heaven and filled the trunk. My hair stood on end because I realized that what I was witnessing was not from God, so I fought with all my strength to turn around and make my way back to the door. When I got there I turned around and everyone in the tent was consumed. (After my fall, breaking the Sabbath, I went as far as working for Ozzy again and God opened to my mind the fulfillment of this dream to be awakened from the lure of the big top.)

At the door was another beautiful woman. (The very night I gave my notice to everyone that I was retiring again from the Circus, and for good , I met another beautiful woman who tormented me for three years) She had a football in her hand (we broke up on the night of the Superbowl)and she threw it at me and taunted me saying "come on tough guy, throw it at me with all your might." I didn't want to hurt her so I threw it respectably hard but restrained and she caught it with ease and said "is that all you've got?" and then the master of Ceremonies stood beside me and said "let me try" and he knocked her off her pedestal. (I tried so hard to convert her to being an SDA. But to reward me she would do the most hateful things against me with other men.)

I walked away very sad in the dream and looked back and saw her in his arms and laughing. (she got swept up in the Rock and roll world I got her access to, and would not come out.)

Leaving the Circus to the north I next walked into a field of wheat that was white with kernels. There was just a sliver of sunlight remaining above the horizon to my left and the light was golden, shimmering above the wheat. I heard the Still Small Voice say "the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few" and I woke up from the dream.

Every single aspect of the dream has been perfectly fulfilled all the way to the end. Not one aspect has failed. My God showed me before hand exactly how I would be tested and fail and brought through the mix to a perfect end. I love my Lord more after all I've been through.

Since my permanent retirement from the 'circus' I have been lead to a wonderful ministry. I started a Smoothie shop before the recession and was privileged to teach thousands of people about the Sabbath by being closed on Sabbath and the health reform message by naming the shop "Pulse" after Daniel 1:12. I have started to receive more and more insight by dreams and visions and impressions and I'm closer to Christ now than ever.

I have seen miracles and such amazingly powerful answers to prayer that I will never change my mind again. I am sealed because the sealing "is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved—The S.D.A. Bible Commentary 4:1161 (1902). {LDE 219.4}

This is my testimony in the name of Christ Jesus our redeemer.

"The Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions.... {LDE 159.1}

A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise to have a carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirit’s working.... Those things which have been in the past will be in the future. Satan will make music a snare by the way in which it is conducted.—Selected Messages 2:36, 38 (1900). {LDE 159.2}

Jesus, The Father and Holy Spirit are ALL GOD! the lyrics of "Majesty" are evil?

Who said the lyrics of "Majesty" are evil?

The way the lyrics of "Majesty" are sung and the way the music is played could be evil, but that doesn't mean the words themselves would be evil.

We can even make the song, "Amazing Grace" evil, not because of the lyrics, but because of the way the music is played and the way the words are sung.

You all prove your ignorance brothers.

Did Jesus pray to Himself? Jesus told us to pray to the Father, in His name, not to Him.

He said to pray "OUR FATHER which art in heaven...for THINE IS THE KINGDOM POWER AND GLORY FOREVER".

"Jesus said, “Ye shall ask in My name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: for the Father Himself loveth you.” ... John 16:26, 27.... But to pray in the name of Jesus is something more than a mere mention of that name at the beginning and the ending of a prayer. It is to pray in the mind and spirit of Jesus, while we believe His promises, rely upon His grace, and work His works. {CSA 27.9}

We are to pray to the Father in the name of the Son. If we are IN CHRIST we stand in the body of the Son, so why would we pray to the SON?

Show me one place in scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy that it says we should pray to Jesus. It does say to "come to Jesus and present your prayers to the Lord" but this is the same as saying bring your prayers to the Father in the name of the Son.

Phil 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of the Father.

And you all wonder why your prayers aren't answered. SO IGNORANT, and you criticize a messenger from God in your ignorance!

So in the song 'Majesty' written by a fallen Christian, when he repeats over and over "Unto Jesus be all glory power and praise" this is not biblical, and totally unfounded in our faith. Brought in by other ignorant men claiming our faith so they can close their eyes and raise their hands to the ceiling in defiance of God's truth.

Not to mention that we should not use vain repetitions in our hymns and prayers.

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

"Majesty, worship His majesty. Unto Jesus, unto Jesus, Unto Jesus, unto Jesus, Unto Jesus... etc, etc, etc.

The men responsible for bringing the new Hymnal into our church are the same men who bring the Omega of Apostasy.

Is there really such a thing as "Christian Rock" that is truly Christian?

Majesty worship His Majesty
Unto Jesus, be all glory,
Power and praise
Majesty, Kingdom authority
Flow from His throne,
Unto his own, His anthem raise.

So exalt, lift up on high
The Name of Jesus
Magnify, come glorify,
Christ Jesus the King
Majesty, worship His Majesty
Jesus who died, now glorified,
King of all Kings.

---------------
Bible:
2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Rev. 5:12 Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
vs. 6 let all the angels of God worship him.

Phil. 2:9 Wherefore God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I don't see any special evil in the song "Majesty." It seems quite simple and biblical to me. I would take issue with other contemporary songs such as "Above All."

Comparison of Lyrics with Scripture
"Above All" Lyrics	Scripture Perspective
Verse 1 Above all powers Above all kings Above all nature And all created things Above all wisdom And all the ways of man You were here Before the world began	Who is above all earthly powers, kings, and nature? Who was here before the world began? There are two possibilities here: Christ and Satan. These are the two "princes" spoken of in the book of Daniel. Neither is directly mentioned in the song.
Verse 2 Above all kingdoms Above all thrones Above all wonders The world has ever known Above all wealth And treasures of the earth There's no way to measure What You're worth	Again, there are two possibilities here: Christ and Satan. The Bible says we are to praise "the name of the LORD." Where is it in this song?
CHORUS Crucified Laid behind the stone You lived to die Rejected and alone Like a rose Trampled on the ground You took the fall And thought of me Above all	Here's where the lyrics finally show their true colors. The song clearly alludes now to Jesus' crucifixion and burial. But there are theological problems presented here which indicate the true inspiration for the words. Jesus is left in the grave. No mention is made of His resurrection or victory. He is as one defeated. He is said to have "lived to die." This has no scriptural support. Mrs. White frequently said that Jesus "lived to bless." He had a purpose for living that went far beyond His death. "Trampled on the ground..."-- This is contradicted in scripture. Jesus was the One doing the trampling, not the one getting trampled! (See Genesis 3:15.) The snake is the one who gets trampled, not Jesus! "You took the fall..."-- Did Jesus fall? No! Never! He took sin upon Himself, but He did not ever fall, nor did He sin. Had He fallen, He would most certainly have remained in the grave where this song leaves Him.

This song is better seen as Satan's victory dance theme. He is trying, through the words of this song, to tell Jesus that His sacrifice was for nought, that He "lived to die, rejected and alone." Satan wishes to tell Jesus that He was "trampled" and "fallen." But it is simply not true. Praise God that Jesus was victorious over sin, and death, and that He rose in triumph over Satan and his host!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

No.

Interesting, as I never dissected that song, or any other song, in the manner that you did.

ah the exogetical rant of an insane man may be seen as brilliant to those who are but blind in his presence.
-Syntax and the study of words in any language including English is but a vain study of letters jumbled together to determine a set output for only a short time. In time each and every word will carry a new and sometimes surprising change. It is the statement of a human whom in Faith explores the Galaxy of divinity in a plea of hope and praise that will be th esound that may fall upon the creator and will be answered in His will, not in mine.
-Some pray to Mary, some pray to Jesus, some pray to the Father, some may not even pray... the relity is that it is His will as to whom shall have eternal life...
just saying
-as for the judgement about "Christian Rock" I ask you all is there such thing as "Christian Music"?

Again I'll ask, did Jesus EVER ask us to pray to Him?

He came to us, then He sent His Holy Spirit to minister to us. He is in us if we are in Him, so why would we pray to him?

He told us to pray to the Father.

Those new so called hymns that we sing in church with the prerecorded music or bands in our churches now, these songs all fit the mark of celebration-ism, making people feel good about themselves instead of breaking their self willed spirit.

Over and over we are told to come to Jesus, this is so our prayers can be heard by the Father.

"Jesus receives and welcomes you as His own friend. He loves you; He has pledged Himself to open before you all the treasures of His grace for your appropriation. He says, “At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: for the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God” (John 16:26, 27). He virtually says, Make use of My name, and it will be your passport to the heart of My Father, and to all the riches of His grace." {HP 79.5}

So the point is, if you want powerful answer to prayers we come to the Father in the name of the Son and He answers our prayers.

JESUS NEVER SAID FOR US TO PRAY TO HIMSELF!!!!!!!

"singing should not be allowed to divert the mind from the hours of devotion. If one must be neglected, let it be the singing." —The Review and Herald, July 24, 1883

In most churches the singing is a distraction, taking more time than the actual message.

It is appropriate that Jesus receive honor and praise, but Jesus did not leave the upper room singing praise to Himself. He is our example and He sang to the Father. He said "pray to the Father and He will hear you", He never said to pray to Him.

He sang of the virtue and glory of His Father who He came to this earth to guide our hearts to.

This is how to mention Jesus in psalm or Hymn. "Glory be to God the Father for sending His Son so our prayers can be heard". This pleases His Father.

God does not love us because he provided this great propitiation, but he so loved the world that he made the propitiation from the foundation of the world. He has made every provision whereby his grace and favor may come to man. But was the great sacrifice made in order that Adam’s sin might be perpetuated, and the flood-gates of woe be ever left open upon our world?—No, it was to bring us back to our loyalty to God, to keep his commandments and live, and his law as the apple of our eye. Christ says, “Ye are my friends if ye do whatsoever I command you.” Perfect obedience to the law of God is the test by which it is known that our love is perfect toward Christ. The Father reveals his love to Christ by receiving and welcoming the friends of Christ as his friends. The Father is fully satisfied with the atonement that Christ has made. He suffered the penalty of the law in order that man might have an opportunity to exercise repentance towards God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. In behalf of sinners Christ has borne hardships, insults, calumny, abuse, an misrepresentation. He was refused by those he came to save, rejected by his own nation. The Lord of glory was put to a most shameful death, and God himself was in Christ, suffering with his only-begotten Son, in order to reconcile the world unto himself. All this was done in order that fallen man might have another chance by which to redeem himself. Christ imputes his righteousness to the repentant, believing soul, and he who receives Christ becomes the friend of God. Humanity is glorified by the incarnation of Christ. Through the plan of salvation the divine government stands unimpeached, while salvation of penitent souls is secured. {ST June 18, 1896, par. 4}
In his prayer for his disciples Christ said: “I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.” In his prayer Christ includes all those who shall hear the words of life and salvation through the messengers whom he sends. We are to look with respect upon God’s workmen, remembering that they are laborers together with God. The people of God through their union with Christ become one with each other. This is the object of their sanctification, “that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.” {ST June 18, 1896, par. 5}
Can the human mind comprehend this statement? Can we by faith comprehend the fact that we are beloved by the Father even as the Son is beloved? Could we indeed lay hold of this and act up to it, we would indeed have the grace of Christ, the golden oil of heaven, poured into our poor, thirsty, parched souls. Our light would no longer be fitful and flickering, but would shine brightly amid the moral darkness that like a funeral pall is enveloping the world. We should by faith hear the prevailing intercession that Christ continually presents in our behalf, as he says: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me; for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee; but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it; that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.” {ST June 18, 1896, par. 6}
We have an advocate at the throne of God, which is encircled by the bow of promise, and we are invited to present our petitions in the name of Christ before the Father. Jesus says: Ask what ye will in my name, and it shall be done unto you. In presenting my name, you bear witness that you belong to me, that you are my sons and daughters, and the Father will treat you as his own, and love you as he loveth me. Your faith in me will lead you to exercise close, filial affection toward me and the Father. I am the golden chain by which your heart and soul are bound in love and obedience to my Father. Express to my Father the fact that my name is dear to you, that you respect and love me, and you may ask what you will. He will pardon your transgressions, and adopt you into his royal family,—make you a child of God, a joint heir with his only begotten Son. Through faith in my name he will impart to you the sanctification and holiness which will fit you for his work in a world of sin, and qualify you for an immortal inheritance in his kingdom. The Father has thrown open, not only all heaven, but all his heart, to those who manifest faith in the sacrifice of Christ, and who through faith in the love of God, return unto their loyalty. Those who believe in Christ as the sin-bearer, the propitiation for their sins, the intercessor in their behalf, may through the riches of the grace of God, lay claim to the treasures of heaven. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Jesus says, “Ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.” {ST June 18, 1896, par. 7}
The summing up of the benefit of prayer is that devotion that leads to faith in God’s promises. This faith is the key that opens the divine treasury, is the hand by which we appropriate to our use the richest gifts of God. The prayer of the contrite heart unlocks the treasure house of supplies, and lays hold of omnipotent power. This kind of prayer enables the suppliant to understand what it means to lay hold of the strength of God, and to make peace with him. This kind of prayer causes us to have an influence over those with whom we associate. The prayer of faith is not listless, dry, and uninteresting. It wells up from perfect trust and assurance, and by its fervor makes manifest to the world, to angels, and to men, that you do believe in God, and have made Christ your personal Saviour. The Lord Jehovah accepts the argument that is presented in the name of his Son, and places the resources of his merit at your command. It is our privilege and duty to bring the efficacy of the name of Christ into our petitions, and use the very arguments that Christ has used in our behalf. Our prayers will then be in complete harmony with the will of God. Then it is that Christ clothes the contrite suppliant with his own priestly vestments, and the human petitioner approaches the altar holding the holy censer, from which ascends the incense of the fragrance of the merit of Christ’s righteousness. {ST June 18, 1896, par. 8}
Our Redeemer encourages us to present continual supplications. He makes to us most decided promises that we shall not plead in vain. He says: “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” He then presents the picture of a child asking bread of its father, and shows how much more willing God is to grant our requests than a parent is to grant his child’s petition. He says: “If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children; how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” {ST June 18, 1896, par. 9}
Our precious Saviour is ours today. In him our hopes of eternal life are centered. He is the One who presents our petitions to the Father, and communicates to us the blessing for which we asked. He is the medium of prayer through which man speaks to God, and the medium through which God imparts blessing to humanity. He is the Intercessor and the Bestower. Herein is the love of God made manifest, “not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” God has given assurance upon assurance, heaped gift upon gift, multiplied grace upon grace, and imparted his divine treasures to humanity, in order that we may believe the love that God hath for us. Beholding this love, John exclaims, “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” {ST June 18, 1896, par. 10}

So where in our faith does God say to pray to Jesus?

John 14:14 "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

Although the KJV does not render it as such, "...textual evidence may be cited...for the insertion of the pronoun "me" after the verb "ask." (SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5 p. 1036)

1. This indicates that praying to Jesus is acceptable.
2. If we cannot pray to Jesus, why not? Is he not also God?

Wow, you sure know how to stretch things to fit your understanding.

May I ask you something? Is Jesus our example or not? When He prayed, did He pray to Himself?

"In Christ’s name our petitions ascend to the Father. He (Jesus) intercedes in our behalf, and the Father lays open all the treasures of His grace for our appropriation, for us to enjoy and impart to others. “Ask in My name,” Christ says. “I do not say that I will pray the Father for you; for the Father Himself loveth you. Make use of My name. This will give your prayers efficiency, and the Father will give you the riches of His grace. Wherefore ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.” {Pr 217.1}

"Ever since Adam’s sin, the human race had been cut off from direct communion with God; the intercourse between heaven and earth had been through Christ; but now that Jesus had come “in the likeness of sinful flesh” (Romans 8:3), the Father Himself spoke. He had before communicated with humanity through Christ; now He communicated with humanity in Christ. Satan had hoped that God’s abhorrence of evil would bring an eternal separation between heaven and earth. But now it was manifest that the connection between God and man had been restored." {DA 116.2}

Please do not think that I boast, but this is next level Christianity.

Since there is so much misunderstanding going on, I need to clarify.

Worthy is the lamb who was slain to receive Honor and glory forever. Amen.

But He has irreversibly associated Himself with us, as one of us forever. He subjected Himself to the laws we are righteously constrained to keep, to show us how, through Him. One of those principles in true religion is prayer. He prayed to the Father and told us to do so. He said pray this way, "Our Father who art in heaven..."

He was "cut off" for us. The greatest mystery is the fact that "Divinity did not die" when Jesus spiritually and physically died, which is intimately connected to how His body didn't decompose after death.

Since He had not sinned Himself, He could not have died, as proven at the beginning of His ministry in the 40 days of no water or food in the desert. Enough to kill a man many times over. But after receiving all of the sins of the Universe on His head He would be cut off, dying spiritually, then it would be possible to die physically on the cross; but even then God could not die. The divinity and humanity of Christ went through hell, suffering the wrath of the Father just as the wicked will suffer in the fires from God in the second death. The love associated with the Father allowing the depth of this sacrifice shows His love for us. This is the most powerful lesson we can teach to bring people to the love of Christ.

I would say there is such a thing as "Christian Music", but is there really such thing as "Christian Rock Music"???

Do you realize that waltzes were considered evil in their days?

Men have always found a way to make something evil out of what God gave us.

But think about this brother. This is a simplified version of a deep subject.

When Moses left Egypt with their wealth, Egypt went bankrupt and many of the more prominent priests left Egypt with all of their influence and took their show to Pergamum and influenced the music of northern Africa.

Flash forward a couple of thousand years and guess where the Colonies begin to take slaves from? Northern Africa. The music was brought to the shores of America in mainly the port of New Orleans and converted into 'gospel' music through a suppressed race being forced into Christianity.

They were told only to use the black keys on the piano, which forced them to make music in the Pentatonic (Five note) scale which is where all the influence for Blues came from, which directly influenced Rock and Roll, which became repackaged with a new label and brought into the church.

How's that for condensing?

Case in point, JSOT, as per our PM discussion. Do you Have ANY documentation or support of ANY kind to back up this statement?

Just wondering.

I had been studying rock music most of my life before being converted, and now God uses me to share what I've learned to warn others.

Here are some search queries for the lazy to get started in proving this last statement.

Origins of the Blues (See wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_blues)

Pentatonic scale/ five black keys

The third Position of the all black key pentatonic scale is even called the 'Egyptian Suspended scale' because of it's similarities to the music from Egypt that started that tone of music.

The main element of Egyptian influence in our music is in the rhythms and syncopation. These elements are borrowed directly from the Egyptian influenced music from the Days of Moses.

Remember when Moses came down off the mountain and Joshua said he heard war in the camp, Moses said "no they are partying" because he knew the sound of the music. That music was used in worship of the Egyptian god Osiris, represented by the golden calf. This Egyptian god was most similar to the story of Jesus and Satan wanted to distract God's people before receiving the law.

Moses did his best to rid the people of that influence but it arose later in America.

This next quote is from SDA Lloyd Leno's article "Music and the Great Controversy"

... we again turn to the historian Budge, former keeper of Egyptian antiquities in the British museum... this traditional Egyptian style of music and dance spread to the Sudan and Northwest part of Africa where the essential symbolic elements are still very much present and observable. He cites observations of the dress, actions and behavior of the dances using such expressions as "Obscene" "Lewdness" and "distinguishing indecency". (Budge 234, 239)
Budge specifically identifies the most famous of the professional dancing women among the Egyptians, the Ghawazi tribe, that there style of dance using rapid vibrating motion of their hips from side to side are direct descendants of the professional dancers and singers who were part of the temple service in ancient Egypt.
...There is a direct connection between the religious practices of Egypt and that of the west African people"


I could go on and on but you need to do the research yourself JAK.

Now imagine my life experience, being lead to these conclusions, and immediately in that same day two SDA pastors come to my door and tell me they're selling my church to build a celebration type mega church and using flattery to try and get me to orchestrate their staging and music production.

Tell me you wouldn't think you were being assailed by Satan through the church. It happened, I was.

You know I will not accept your say-so as authouritative.


Try to confine your digs to our PM, or Daryl will have us turfed off of this forum. (Didn't you read his warning?)


Wikipedia, though interesting to read, is hardly a recognized authority. Any Joe can post there, and it is not peer-reviewed.


Citation needed.


Citation needed.


At least this references someone other than yourself. But who is Leno? What are his credentials? Is he a historian or a trombone player? And he is quoting Budge, so this information is, at best, second hand.



No doubt. That was never in debate.



No, I don't. You need to supply support for your statements.

To restate my earlier challenge, please provide credible citations for the following statements from the above quote:

1. Egypt went bankrupt
2. many of the more prominent priests (especially the "more prominant" statement.)
3. took their show to Pergamum This requires two clarifications. First, a credible citation. Second, a tie-in with the discussion. (ie: What is the significance of the priests going to Pergamum. Pergamum is in Turkey)

I've had good teachers.

This post relates to the above quote and the three posts following it, asking for evidence that we should pray to Jesus. (Post numbers 149716, 149720, and 149722)

We should really start a new thread on this topic, or find an existing one and continue it.

But, that being said, you (JSOT) did not address my Biblical reference in John 14:14 with a Biblical response. You did, however, cite yourself and 2 EGW quotes as authorities.

You must know by this time that I do not accept your opinion as authoritative, despite the voices in your head.*

If you have researched any of my other posts in the past you will have found that I also reject EGW as authoritative.

So, essentially, you have not addressed the challenge.

*Daryl, you can't turf me off for that statement, since he himself admits to it. (See posts #141235 and 141347)

"Amazing Grace", but John Newton, Pentatonic scale.