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Forum members,

I am reopening this topic following staff evaluation and editing. I trust that everyone participating here will move forward positively, and not revisit the wrongs of the past. Please do your best to always address the topic, and not the person.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

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I agree. Furthermore, Jesus continued "suffering" the ravages of the second death on the cross. However, we must reconcile this insight with the following insights:


(1) Sister White makes it clear Jesus finished what He came to do BEFORE He voluntarily laid down His life, BEFORE He died. (2) The sense of the Father's favor was restored BEFORE He died. Neither of these things are part of the second death.

What was Jesus' mission?
1) 1 John 3:8 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2)John 17:6 I have manifested your name to the men which you gave me out of the world: yours they were, and you gave them me; and they have kept your word.

3) Hebrews 2:14 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil

Summary - 1) Jesus can to destroy the works of the devil. This he did, and he declared it here: John 14:30, before death on the cross. 2) He represented the true character of God = manifest His Name, John 14:9. 3) Demonstrated that the wages of sin is death, and died the second death, Romans 6:23.

Brother M&M,

at least this time you agree that Jesus did die the second death.

The intention of the inspiration God has led me to about Jesus dying the second death in Gethsemane was never to do away with the cross but to amplify the mission of Christ. That He did not just die the physical death but the death we all deserve, being 'cut off' from the Father. Can you imagine?

Always remember, that evening, before Gethsemane BEGINS the three days and three nights 'sign of Jonah'. Every one of those three days are very important to our faith. But this aspect of the sign, beginning in the Upper Room, has not been fully embraced in our church. This message has been hidden to those who have not been led to it.

Mrs White and her husband saw it as Mr White posted in his first writing...

“The ‘earth’ in this case must mean the powers of earth, or the power and control of wicked men, and the Devil… Thus, Jesus was in the heart of the earth, or controlled and held by the powers of earth and hell, from the time that he was betrayed into the hands of sinners, until he arose from the dead, in triumph and victory. Jesus was as much in the heart of the earth when before Pilate, and on the cross, as he was while in Joseph’s tomb. With this view, all the Scripture testimony will harmonize.” {PTJW December, 1849, Art. 5, p. 39.5}

This sign is connected to present truth and it is validation that our message is from God. It is the only sign that will be given to the wicked and adulterous generation of our day that God has led us here.

Since I was led to the church no one could ever justify the three days and nights, then God gave me the vision and then I started finding all sorts of supporting evidence. It IS a sign.

jsot - Christ' betrayal into sinners hands was after the Gethsemane experience. You are moving the timeline up from James White's statement.

No sir Brother,

if you think about it, Jesus was betrayed into the hands of sinners when He looked at Judas and said "what you must do, do quickly". I believe that began the three days and three nights, just before sunset on Thursday in the upper room.

“The Lord Jesus the same night in which He was betrayed took bread: and when He had given thanks, He brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is My body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of Me. After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in My blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord’s death till He come.” 1 Corinthians 11:23-26. {DA 652.1}
Christ was standing at the point of transition between two economies and their two great festivals. He, the spotless Lamb of God, was about to present Himself as a sin offering, that He would thus bring to an end the system of types and ceremonies that for four thousand years had pointed to His death. As He ate the Passover with His disciples, He instituted in its place the service that was to be the memorial of His great sacrifice. The national festival of the Jews was to pass away forever. The service which Christ established was to be observed by His followers in all lands and through all ages. {DA 652.2}

"In surprise and confusion at the exposure of his purpose, Judas rose hastily to leave the room. “Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.... He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.” Night it was to the traitor as he turned away from Christ into the outer darkness. {DA 654.3}

"As we receive the bread and wine symbolizing Christ’s broken body and spilled blood, we in imagination join in the scene of Communion in the upper chamber. We seem to be passing through the garden consecrated by the agony of Him who bore the sins of the world. We witness the struggle by which our reconciliation with God was obtained. Christ is set forth crucified among us. {DA 661.1}

Before leaving the upper chamber, the Saviour led His disciples in a song of praise. His voice was heard, not in the strains of some mournful lament, but in the joyful notes of the Passover hallel: {DA 672.3}
“O praise the Lord, all ye nations:
Praise Him, all ye people.
For His merciful kindness is great toward us:
And the truth of the Lord endureth forever.
Praise ye the Lord.” Psalm 117. {DA 672.4}
After the hymn, they went out. Through the crowded streets they made their way, passing out of the city gate toward the Mount of Olives. Slowly they proceeded, each busy with his own thoughts. As they began to descend toward the mount, Jesus said, in a tone of deepest sadness, “All ye shall be offended because of Me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.” Matthew 26:31.

“Jesus with his disciples now left the upper chamber, and crossed the brook Kedron. Sorrow and anguish again pressed heavily upon his heart…It was not a dread of the physical suffering he was soon to endure that brought this agony upon the Son of God. He was enduring the penalty of man's transgression and shuddering beneath the Father's frown.{5Red 21.1}

They had that night celebrated the Passover correct? What was the first thing done for the Passover celebration? Dressed and ready to go, the Father of each family cut the throat of the Pascal Lamb between the door posts. As Jesus left the celebration of the Passover and exited Jerusalem out the Eastern Gate to descend to Gethsemane He was already shuddering beneath the Fathers frown.

Please Brother, take me seriously and test the Spirit truly, in faith that God will show you this amazing truth. The sign of Jonah Begins in the Upper room on Thursday evening just before Sunset.

Thursday evening to Sunday morning makes three days and three nights.

As a devoted follower of Jesus you owe this to Him. Peace.

The purpose of the Saviour in pronouncing the woe upon Judas was twofold: First, to give the false disciple a last opportunity to save himself from the betrayer’s doom; and, secondly, to give the disciples a crowning evidence of his Messiahship, in revealing the hidden purpose of Judas. Said Jesus: “I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen; but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Now I tell you before it come, that when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.” {5Red 7.2}
The withdrawal of Judas was a relief to all present. The Saviour’s face immediately lighted, and the oppressive shadow was lifted from the disciples, as they saw the peace of Heaven return to the pale, worn countenance of their Lord. Jesus had much to say to his beloved disciples that he did not wish to say in the presence of the multitude, who could not understand the sacred truths he was about to unfold. Even the disciples could not fully understand them till after the resurrection should have taken place. {5Red 8.1}
Looking upon his faithful followers, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.” He then informed them of his approaching separation from them. The ardent Peter could not rest while the matter remained in uncertainty. He inquired, “Lord, whither goest thou?” Jesus answered, “Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterward.” But Peter’s interest was intensely roused, and he urged Jesus to explain his full meaning, saying, “Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.” Jesus answered sorrowfully, “Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow till thou hast denied me thrice.” Then, looking with pitying love upon his little flock, so soon to be left without a shepherd, he sought to draw their minds from the perplexity into which his statements had thrown them, and said tenderly, “Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.” {5Red 8.2}
Jesus with his disciples now left the upper chamber, and crossed the brook Kedron. Sorrow and anguish again pressed heavily upon his heart. With touching sadness he addressed his companions: “All ye shall be offended because of me this night; for it is written, I will smite the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered. But after that I am risen I will go before you into Galilee.” Peter, again anxious to assure his Master of his fidelity, said, “Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.” Jesus, reproving his confidence as before, said, “Verily I say unto thee, that this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.” But Peter only “spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee I will not deny thee in any wise. Likewise also said they all.” {5Red 9.2}
Jesus now repaired with his disciples to the garden of Gethsemane, at the foot of Mount Olivet, a retired place which he had often visited for seasons of communion with his Father. It was night; but the moon was shining bright, and revealed to him a flourishing grape-vine. Drawing the attention of the disciples to it, he said, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away; and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.” {5Red 10.1}

James, I didn't mean to say Jesus "died the second death". I believe He "suffered the second death". Satan, the scapegoat, will suffer with the sins of the saved and then die with their second death. I also believe Jesus began suffering the second death in Gethsemane.

So Brother Mountain Man,

you say that Jesus "suffered the second death" but did not die the second death?

I'm sure in your mind you are taking the words that He "tasted death" seriously eh? He didn't truly "drink the cup of the wrath of God" did He? He just tasted a little bit but didn't drink it to the dregs?

You do not comprehend what He went through. He tasted everyone's second death all at the same time.

"The High cost of the cross". by Joe Crews

"The question is; how does Christ's death make it possible for Him to forgive sin? This brings us to the crux of all we have learned so far. It was necessary for Jesus to suffer the second death in order to acquire the power to forgive.

The germ of all forgiveness is rooted in an act of substitution. Whoever forgives another person must actually substitute himself for the one he forgives, and be willing to suffer the consequences of the wrong done...

This illustration brings us very close to the heart of the atonement.

The punishment for sin is not the first death, but the second death. That is why the protracted agony of Jesus on the cross was totally unlike any other death. Thousands of criminals were crucified in the same physical way that Christ was nailed to the cross, but they suffered only the bodily pain of the first death. He experienced the awful condemnation and separation from God that the vilest of sinners will feel in the lake of fire. His sensitive nature was traumatized by sharing vicariously the guilt of foul rapes, murders, and atrocities. He became sin in order to allow the full wrath of the law to fall upon Him in exactly the same way it would fall upon the lost.

In no other way can we explain the mysterious anguish of spirit which surrounded our Savior in His closing hours of life. From the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus bore the accumulated sins of mankind on His breaking heart. Not one ray of light was permitted to penetrate the blanket of total alienation from His Father in heaven. In order to take the place of guilty sinners and to provide forgiveness there could be no difference in their penalty and His penalty.

Let no one suggest that the Father did not suffer equally with His Son. The divine forbearance of God in allowing wicked men to torture His Son to death is the ultimate proof that He loves us with the same love that He loved Jesus."


The second death is physically dying while cut off from the Father. Did Jesus not physically die while cut off from the Father?

If he didn't then He died for nothing because He had to pay the FULL penalty for everyone's combined sins all compounded.