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Re: Christ our Vaccine
#14219
06/16/05 03:36 AM
06/16/05 03:36 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
R: If He does, Christ had to die for our sinful nature; if He doesn’t, Christ died only for our sinful acts.
T: Christ died to bring us to God. The purpose of His ministry was to reveal God to us, in order to set us and keep us right.
Yes, both the Christus Victor theory and the Moral Influence theory evade what the Bible states clearly:
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Isa. 53:11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
quote:
T: Babies die for the same reason animals die and other humans die, and plants and single-celled organisms too.
Animals, plants and single-celled organisms are incapable of sinning. On the other hand, the Bible says that
”Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”.
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Re: Christ our Vaccine
#14220
06/15/05 06:49 PM
06/15/05 06:49 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom: Christ died to bring us to God. The purpose of His ministry was to reveal God to us, in order to set us and keep us right. R: Yes, both the Christus Victor theory and the Moral Influence theory evade what the Bible states clearly: 1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Isa. 53:11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. T: I don't see the "evasion". What is being denied is that Christ died in order to enable God to be able to forgive us, or as an appeasement of God's wrath. No one doubt that Christ died "huper ton harmartion" or "for our sins". The difference is over what that means. One view is that it was our sins which caused His death. This is in harmony with inspiration, both the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophesy, and is not denied by Christus Victor. What is denied is that God killed Christ. That Christ is the propitiation for our sins also does not deny Christus Victor. This is obviously true. Our sins separated us from God, and Christ has reconciled us to God. If you look at the context you will see that John is talking about the love of God being revealed. It is this which reconciles us to God (this is the same as Paul's theology, but John writes more simply so is not as easy to misinterpret). There's no idea in John's theology that Christ paid some price so God could forgive us, or to appease God's wrath. Just look at the context. It's talking about love, not legal matters. Regarding Isa. 53:11, let's look at a similar verse: quote:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. (1 Pet. 2:24, 25)
This not only tells us that Christ bore our sins, it tells us why:
1)To heal us.
2) To return us to God, from whom we were as sheep going astray (quoting Isa 53!)
Old Tom: Babies die for the same reason animals die and other humans die, and plants and single-celled organisms too.
R: Animals, plants and single-celled organisms are incapable of sinning. On the other hand, the Bible says that
”Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”.
T: This makes my point. They are incapable of sinning, yet they die (talking about physical death). Why? Obviously because of Adam, which is same reason babies die.
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Re: Christ our Vaccine
#14221
06/15/05 10:16 PM
06/15/05 10:16 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
What is denied is that God killed Christ.
But this cannot be denied, unless you believe that what killed Christ was just the cross. Look, Christ killed Himself in the sense that, by assuming our sins, He knew He would be exposed to God’s wrath. God killed Christ in the sense that, when He permitted Christ to assume our sins, He knew Christ would be exposed to His wrath. Satan killed Christ in the sense that He led us to sin, and this sin, when assumed by Christ, exposed Him to God’s wrath. And we killed Christ in the sense that we sinned, and when He assumed our sins, He became exposed to God’s wrath.
quote:
T: This makes my point. They are incapable of sinning, yet they die (talking about physical death). Why? Obviously because of Adam, which is same reason babies die.
The text is not speaking about animals, plants or microorganisms, but about human beings. The text says: Do all men die? Yes. Why? Because all sinned. Here “all” means “all”. It’s as true that all die as it is true that all sinned - and this, I suppose, would include babies.
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Re: Christ our Vaccine
#14222
06/16/05 12:05 AM
06/16/05 12:05 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom:What is denied is that God killed Christ.
But this cannot be denied, unless you believe that what killed Christ was just the cross. Look, Christ killed Himself in the sense that, by assuming our sins, He knew He would be exposed to God’s wrath. God killed Christ in the sense that, when He permitted Christ to assume our sins, He knew Christ would be exposed to His wrath. Satan killed Christ in the sense that He led us to sin, and this sin, when assumed by Christ, exposed Him to God’s wrath. And we killed Christ in the sense that we sinned, and when He assumed our sins, He became exposed to God’s wrath.
T: I disagree vehemently that God killed Christ. I started a thread on the topic, so I won't comment on it here. It's an important subject to consider.
Old Tom: This makes my point. They are incapable of sinning, yet they die (talking about physical death). Why? Obviously because of Adam, which is same reason babies die.
R: The text is not speaking about animals, plants or microorganisms, but about human beings. The text says: Do all men die? Yes. Why? Because all sinned. Here “all” means “all”. It’s as true that all die as it is true that all sinned - and this, I suppose, would include babies.
T: All men die for the same reason babies die and micro-organisms, and animals and plants and whatever. They all die because Adam sinned. As soon as Adam sinned, natured was affected.
To make clear, we're talking about physical death here. We do not die physically because of our own sin (although sinful living may cut our life shorter), but because of Adam's. No matter how perfectly we live, our bodies will still get old and die. We are genetically programmed to die. This corruptable must put on incorruption. There's a flaw in the equipment.
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Re: Christ our Vaccine
#14223
06/16/05 05:09 AM
06/16/05 05:09 AM
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OP
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Back to the original question about Christ as our Vaccine against the Sin Disease:
Anyone care to respond to this statement?:
"Thus all the sin of this world, from its origin in the world to the end of it in the world, was laid upon Him--both sin as it is in itself and sin as it is when committed by us; sin in its tendency and sin in the act: sin as it is hereditary in us, uncommitted by us; and sin as it is committed by us."
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Re: Christ our Vaccine
#14224
06/16/05 11:42 AM
06/16/05 11:42 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
We do not die physically because of our own sin (although sinful living may cut our life shorter), but because of Adam's.
Look, this is not at all what the text says. It says that death spread to all men because all sinned, not because Adam sinned. Death may have spread to animals and plants because of Adam's sin, but this is not true of man, according to the text. We die because, through our own sin, we share the same guilt of Adam.
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Re: Christ our Vaccine
#14225
06/16/05 08:41 PM
06/16/05 08:41 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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All sinned corporately in Adam, as all received "justification of life" (or "favor with God") corporately in Christ. It *is* what the text says. quote:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22)
We do not die physically because of our own sins, just as animals do not die physically because of their sins. There's no difference.
quote:
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (Ecc. 3:19)
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Re: Christ our Vaccine
#14226
06/16/05 08:43 PM
06/16/05 08:43 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Nice statement Phil. If Christ did not take upon Him sin both in its tendency and cultivation, He could not be tempted as we are tempted, and He could not have broken the power that sin has on us.
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Re: Christ our Vaccine
#14227
06/17/05 08:55 AM
06/17/05 08:55 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Psalm 32
2 Blessed is the man
whose sin the LORD does not count against him
and in whose spirit is no deceit.
3 When I kept silent,
my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night
your hand was heavy upon me;
my strength was sapped
as in the heat of summer.
Selah
5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you
and did not cover up my iniquity.
I said, "I will confess
my transgressions to the LORD "—
and you forgave
the guilt of my sin.
Selah
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Re: Christ our Vaccine
#14228
06/17/05 11:26 AM
06/17/05 11:26 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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