EGW saw babies (who had died while still infants) coming up in the first resurrection, so they aren't counted as guilty sinners at birth.

We all need a Savior Who can change our vile bodies from mortal to immortal at the resurrection; in that sense babies need a Savior. That's a different thing from needing a Savior because we're guilty of having sinned. Babies don't have guilt. They do have a corrupt, fallen human nature though.

Yes, but guilt is based on knowledge and accountibility, therefore, infants are incapable of experiencing guilt. Nevertheless, all have sinned, and that must necessarily include infants. However, God does not impute sin and guilt in cases involving sins of ignorance. In such cases, the life and death of Jesus is imputed to cover their sins. But, not all infants will enter the kingdom of heaven. Some will, no doubt, be treated as if they never existed. Perhaps God will base the eternal reward of infants on their parents? We can trust God to do the right thing!

Could you explain this statement of yours, MM:

"Fetal sins? What about impatience! If a fetus is guilty of being impatient would he require a Saviour?"

John Howard If you agree that we are born "geared to sin", how can you conclude that there is no disease of sin? If I am "geared" to, say, a rash temper, I have it in my genes (heredity or "propensities" according to EGW) and will be brought up in an atmoshpere wher it will be fostered (learned or "aquired" from EGW).
Is this not a result of sin in some manner, in the final anaylsis? It can't be God's perfect plan so what else but the disease of sin?
PS I'm glad you could discover that sin and selfishness are one and the same thing. I don't wish you to "concede" or "be "corrected" at all, old friend, but merely for all of us of the house of God grow in His knowledge together, as I too have gained much here on MSDAOL.

I'd like to know how someone could prove an unborn baby is guilty of impatience--impossible!

I believe the "age of accountability" is around 12 or so. I believe parents stand in the place of their children to God until children are able to understand these things. Many little ones do not understand sin and its consequences. They may make mistakes when young, perhaps even grave mistakes but this does not mean they sinned or understood what they were doing was a sin.

Children begin to understand what sin is and the consequences of sin around the age of 12, give or take a little. At this age, they also start to understand why Jesus died on the cross for them.

But to say an unborn baby could be guilty of impatience or any other sin is ridiculous thinking. There is nothing in the Bible or SOP to back up such a statement. The Catholic Church believes this and this is why they have infant sprinkling at birth--afterall, should the baby die in his sins, he could go to hell or purgatory. They make God out to be some tyrant who hates babies so much He would send them to "hell" supposedly. This is the WORST sort of heresy.

Sister White makes it clear that the prenatal influence of parents upon their unborn children is of vital concern with God. Children receive and develop good and bad habits of character during pregnancy. Thus, it is true - All have sinned (including unborn children). Of course infants do not realize they are sinning, therefore, God winks at their ignorance. But the blood of Jesus covers their sins of ignorance, the same as confessed and forsaken sins. Yes, parents are accountable to God for the sins their children commit before the age of accountablility. But this doesn't mean all children will be saved. There comes a point when the legacy of a family is such that their children are born without hope. Such was the case when God ordered the Jews to kill the children of the pagans who occupied the Promised Land.

1MCP 131
The effect of prenatal influences is by many parents looked upon as a matter of little moment; but heaven does not so regard it. The message sent by an angel of God, and twice given in the most solemn manner, shows it to be deserving of our most careful thought.--MH 372 (1905). {1MCP 131.1}

1MCP 132
The thoughts and feelings of the mother will have a powerful influence upon the legacy she gives her child. If she allows her mind to dwell upon her own feelings, if she indulges in selfishness, if she is peevish and exacting, the disposition of her child will testify to the fact. Thus many have received as a birthright almost unconquerable tendencies to evil.--ST, Sept 13, 1910. (Te 171.) {1MCP 132.1}

1MCP 134
The mother who is a fit teacher for her children must, before their birth, form habits of self-denial and self-control; for she transmits to them her own qualities, her own strong or weak traits of character. The enemy of souls understands this matter much better than do many parents. He will bring temptation upon the mother, knowing that if she does not resist him, he can through her affect her child. The mother's only hope is in God. She may flee to Him for grace and strength. She will not seek help in vain. He will enable her to transmit to her offspring qualities that will help them to gain success in this life and to win eternal life.--ST, Feb. 26, 1902. (CD 219.) {1MCP 134.1}

1MCP 134
The basis of a right character in the future man is made firm by habits of strict temperance in the mother prior to the birth of her child. . . . This lesson should not be regarded with indifference. --GH, Feb, 1880. (AH 258.) {1MCP 134.2}

1MCP 135
As a rule, every intemperate man who rears children transmits his inclinations and evil tendencies to his offspring.--RH, Nov 21, 1882. (Te 170.) {1MCP 135.1}

1MCP 135
Yes, every mother may understand her duty. She may know that the character of her children will depend vastly more upon her habits before their birth and her personal efforts after their birth than upon external advantages or disadvantages.--ST, Feb 26, 1902. (CD 218.) {1MCP 135.2}

1MCP 135
The inquiry of every father and mother should be, "What shall we do unto the child that shall be born?" By many the effect of prenatal influence has been lightly regarded; but the instruction sent from heaven to those Hebrew parents, and twice repeated in the most explicit and solemn manner, shows how the matter is looked upon by the Creator.--ST, Feb 26, 1902. {1MCP 135.4}

1MCP 136
Children are born with the animal propensities largely developed, the parents' own stamp of character having been given to them. . . . The brain force is weakened, and memory becomes deficient.... The sins of the parents will be visited upon their children because the parents have given them the stamp of their own lustful propensities.--2T 391 (1870). {1MCP 136.1}

1MCP 136
I have been shown that Satan seeks to debase the minds of those who unite in marriage, that he may stamp his own hateful image upon their children.... {1MCP 136.2}

He can mold their posterity much more readily than he could the parents, for he can so control the minds of the parents that through them he may give his own stamp of character to their children. Thus many children are born with the animal passions largely in the ascendancy while the moral faculties are but feebly developed.--2T 480 (1870). {1MCP 136.3}

1MCP 140
What an enormous weight of responsibility rests upon parents when we consider that the course pursued by them before the birth of their children has very much to do with the development of their character after their birth.--HL (Part 2) 32, 1865. (2SM 426.) {1MCP 140.1}

1MCP 141
Parents should remember that their children must encounter ... temptations. Even before the birth of the child, the preparation should begin that will enable it to fight successfully the battle against evil.--MH 371 (1905). {1MCP 141.1}

When Adam and Eve sinned, they caused a terrible curse to rest on all of us. We are all born in sin but as children we are NOT sinners until we have reached the age of accountability!

Debbie, what is the difference between sins of ignorance and sins of commission? Do both require a Saviour? Where does it say in the Bible, or the SOP, that children do not start sinning until around the age of 12?

MM, you're mixing different concepts together. First of all, it is true that pre-natal influences are important. It's true that some babies will be taken to heaven, and others not. But that's not because they have sinned, but because of the possibility of character formation. That is, God will take anyone to heaven that He can, because that is His nature; He is a God of love. If certain infants are mistreated in the womb, and misraised by their parents, it may be impossible for them to be raised in the first resurrection. But none of this has anything whatsoever to do with their sinning. This all has to do with the influence of their parents.

Back to infants sinning. The only thing it appears you appeal to to make this point is "All have sinned" to which, I assume, you have Rom. 3:23 in mind. But that verse isn't even talking about our sin, but Adam's. Even if you were to misunderstand that verse as dealing with men in general, rather than Adam, it still wouldn't follow that the verse would include babies. The verse doesn't include Christ, for example, so the "all" is referring to all whom "all" would make sense to apply. So to apply it to babies is circular reasonsing. There's absolutely nothing in Paul's argument that is dealing with babies. If her were, then the Catholics are right, and we should baptize them.

All humanity needs a Savior because we cannot even live physically without Christ's death. "To the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life (DA 660)." That's one reason; we can't even live physically with a Savior.

Another reason is that apart from Christ, we cannot know God. "No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known (John 1:18 GNB)."

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Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)

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The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 22)

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