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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14293
06/20/05 10:50 PM
06/20/05 10:50 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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It doesn't change the fact that sin is sin. You don't repent you die. You want to hang out with the office girls after work while in your heart youwant one of them really badly while the wife is at home and keep it a secret, and not repent, but still think you are filled with the Holy Spirit will result in you being destroyed, you will die, you will not bein heaven, you will be an a very bad place, and will be destroyed. No skimming it or coming in at any angles. The wages of sin is death, not the wages of sin y will lead to a spanking.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14294
06/20/05 10:55 PM
06/20/05 10:55 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Will, no one is disputing that sin is sin and that it will result in death. It's just the comment that there are no degrees of sin that some are taking issue with. There are degrees of sin, and degrees of punishment.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14295
06/20/05 11:39 PM
06/20/05 11:39 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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I would like to see in the Bible the examples of degrees of sin and their different levels of punishment.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14296
06/21/05 02:00 AM
06/21/05 02:00 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Numbers 15:27-31
(27) And if any soul sins through ignorance, then he shall bring a female goat of the first year for a sin offering.
(28) And the priest shall make atonement for the soul who sins ignorantly, when he sins by ignorance before YHWH, to make atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
(29) You shall have one Law for him who sins through ignorance, both for him who is born among the people of Israel, and for the stranger who sojourns among them.
(30) But the soul who does anything presumptuously, whether he is born in the land, or a stranger, that person dishonors YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
(31) Because he has despised the word of YHWH, and has broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14297
06/21/05 02:33 AM
06/21/05 02:33 AM
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Another one: Luke 12:47,48
47 "And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14298
06/21/05 02:53 AM
06/21/05 02:53 AM
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Back on the subject of babies, there's not a single inspired statement anywhere that says we're born sinners, or born condemned, or born sinning, or that babies sin. Phil, saying that we're "born in sin" is quite a different thing from saying we're born sinners. We're born in an environment of sin, but that doesn't make us sinners. Being born into a family of thieves doesn't make us a born thief. We don't become thieves until we steal. Similarly, we don't become sinners until we sin. And we can't sin until we know what the law says. That's not possible for babies. As far as sin being the disease of the soul -- that also happens after we *choose* to sin. Not at birth. Nowhere in Inspiration is sin described as being an involuntary thing. It's always the result of choice. Tom E., here's the passage you were looking for, about babies of unbelievers: "I had some conversation with Elder [J.G.] Matteson in regard to whether children of unbelieving parents would be saved. I related that a sister had with great anxiety asked me this question, stating that some had told her that the little children of unbelieving parents would not be saved.
{3SM 313.1}
"This we should consider as one of the questions we are not at liberty to express a position or an opinion upon, for the simple reason that God has not told us definitely about this matter in His Word. If He thought it was essential for us to know, He would have told us plainly.
{3SM 313.2}
"The things He has revealed are for us and for our children. There are things we do not now understand. We are ignorant of many things that are plainly revealed. When these subjects which have close relation to our eternal welfare are exhausted, then it will be ample time to consider some of these points that some are unnecessarily perplexing their minds about.
{3SM 313.3}
"I know that some questioned whether the little children of even believing parents should be saved, because they have had no test of character and all must be tested and their character determined by trial. The question is asked, "How can little children have this test and trial?" I answer that the faith of the believing parents covers the children. . . .
{3SM 313.4}
"Some parents allow Satan to control their children, and their children are not restrained, but are allowed to have wicked tempers, to be passionate, selfish, and disobedient. Should they die these children would not be taken to heaven. The parent's course of action is determining the future welfare of their children. If they allow them to be disobedient and passionate they are allowing Satan to take them in charge and work through them as shall please his satanic majesty, and these children, never educated to obedience and to lovely traits of character, will not be taken to heaven, for the same temper and disposition would be revealed in them.
{3SM 314.4}
"I said to Brother Matteson, 'Whether all the children of unbelieving parents will be saved we cannot tell, because God has not made known His purpose in regard to this matter, and we had better leave it where God has left it and dwell upon subjects made plain in His Word.'"
{3SM 315.1} So we just don't know. But we do know that some babies will be raised in the first resurrection, so it's just not possible that babies are sinners. Sinners will not be taken to heaven, by anyone's definition. One more thing: Tom E., I thought I detected an inference on your part that I might be "lazy." I hope that wasn't your intent. The reason I brought up how EGW sometimes settled differences on the Scriptures is that many times she did just that, when people came to honest differences of opinion on what the Scriptures mean -- without any laziness being involved. That's just what happened earlier in this thread, with respect to the terms "sin" and "selfishness." You said they're the same, and I said they're not, that one can cause the other. That conclusion of mine was not based on "laziness," but on much study. But I was mistaken, even so. Phil's posting of an SOP passage showed my error, and I was glad for it. But please don't be so high-minded as to think that whomsoever disagrees with your conclusions on Bible topics is automatically "lazy." That's just not the case.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14299
06/21/05 03:21 AM
06/21/05 03:21 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Hmm. this begs the question then who arewe when we are born? Not to regress to such a point but if we are not born sinners, but are born in sin, but arent sinful or are then is there a sort of void that exists?
I did read that there will be children in heaven (somewhere in Isaiah).
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14300
06/21/05 04:51 AM
06/21/05 04:51 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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People here seem to take things very personally. Not just you John, but others as well. I didn't have you in mind as being personally lazy in any way, shape or form, and am truly sorry that you took offence. The fact that you are participating in this forum is obvious proof that you are not lazy.
What I was saying was that using the Spirit of Prophesy should not take the place of studying Scripture -- to use her that way is lazy. God has given us His Word, and minds to think things out. She never said she was an inspired commentary, or that we should use her so we wouldn't need to reason from the Scriptures. *After* the pioneers went as far as the could in studying that Scriptures, *then* the Holy Spirit gave additional light. He continues to do so today.
We should lay hold of all the truth and light God has for us. I've repeatedly said this, and applied it especially to Jones and Waggoner, whom the Spirit of Prophesy endorsed most highly.
Once again, I'm sorry that you apparently took what I said personally. My comments weren't directed at you, and if I'm not mistaken, I've used them in responding to the comments of at least one other besides yourself. I suppose I should have made it clear that the comments were not personal. I'll try to keep that in mind in the future.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14301
06/21/05 04:55 AM
06/21/05 04:55 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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John, you are absolutely mistaken in your view regarding infants and children being unable to sin since they don't understand the claims of the law. People sin all the time even though they don't know or understand the law. Many Sunday-keepers break the Sabbath every week without realizing they are sinning. Of course God winks at their ignorance but it doesn't change the fact they are sinning. The law condemns us as sinners whether we know it or not. It is Jesus who is just and merciful and takes into account that we are but flesh. Ps 78:39. Our will is under the control of Satan until we yield it to Jesus.
5T 515
You need to drink daily at the fountain of truth, that you may understand the secret of pleasure and joy in the Lord. But you must remember that your will is the spring of all your actions. This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. But the infinite sacrifice of God in giving Jesus, His beloved Son, to become a sacrifice for sin, enables Him to say, without violating one principle of His government: "Yield yourself up to Me; give Me that will; take it from the control of Satan, and I will take possession of it; then I can work in you to will and to do of My good pleasure." When He gives you the mind of Christ, your will becomes as His will, and your character is transformed to be like Christ's character. Is it your purpose to do God's will? Do you wish to obey the Scriptures? "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." {5T 515.1}
Romans
7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].
7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14302
06/21/05 05:11 AM
06/21/05 05:11 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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How is it that an infant breaks the Sabbath? Or commits any other sin? Can you give an example of a fetus sin or infant sin?
I don't think I agree with anybody here (except me, and even that I'm not too sure about). The Spirit of Prophesy said in relation to how Christ could remain sinless as a child that this was a mystery unexplained to mortals. It seems to me that many here are wanting to adament about related subjects of which we simply don't have much light.
I don't fully agree with John's position regarding sin, as he seems to have a narrow view of sin IMO (I could be mistaken, but this is my impression, but this is another topic -- this comment is simply an aside saying I don't fully agree with John's position as I understand it) but he makes a good point about there not being any inspired statements about newborn infants or fetuses sinning. At least I'm not aware of any, and I don't see how it makes any sense. We wouldn't say that animals are breaking the Sabbath or committing adultery or such. Fetuses have no more ability to do right or wrong then animals do, do they?
I know John the Baptist jumped for joy in his mother's womb, but then again God used a donkey to speak to Balaam. I'm not wishing to fall into the same pattern of being too adament here, so please take these comments as one who is inquiring, not wishing to delve too deeply into things which have not been revealed to us.
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