If infants cannot do right or wrong, then, as Will asks, is there a void period? and, how long does it last? Since our will is under the control of Satan, until we choose to give it to Jesus, how can infants do anything but sin? Since not all infants are automatically heaven bound, what prevents them from going? if it's not sin, then what is it?

Tom, if certain types of slaves will not go to heaven, because their masters beat them down to less than brute beasts (EW 276), how can God take infants to heaven who are no different than animals, as you pointed out above?

Also, if God will make eternal decisions regarding certain people based on whether or not they would live happy lives in heaven, how is that different from what I posted about judging infants on the lives they would have lived if death hadn't taken them prematurely? Either way God is imputing a life that wasn't lived, right?

Will, I was praying this morning about what you posted regarding sin and death and it occurred to me that death is the end of the punishment, not necessarily the punishment itself. According to the insights posted above every sin ends in death but not all sins are punished equally. In the case of brute slaves they are not punished for their sins, instead their earthly masters are. Nevertheless, though, these particular slaves must remain dead as a result of their sinful condition.

Thank you for the scriptures and SOP that has been provided. The Scriptures do describe that God punishes sins differently, and Sister White follows up on that in an easy to understand way.
The end result is death for the unrepentant, but the sins themselves are treated differently. I really do appreciate not only your patience, but also the wisdom gained from fellowshipping with you all.
God Bless,
Will

You are absolutely right Mike, and I thank God for impressing our hearts and minds because mine was weighing heavily on this. Why I really do not know, but it is the truth and that never changes. Thanks for your words
God Bless,
Will

Tom: Very good questions, MM.

MM: If infants cannot do right or wrong, then, as Will asks, is there a void period? and, how long does it last?

Tom: I don't know what a void period means. There's a time before the age of accountability, if that's what you mean.

MM: Since our will is under the control of Satan, until we choose to give it to Jesus, how can infants do anything but sin?

Tom: Who says that will of babies is under the control of Satan? John the Baptist jumped for joy in his mother's womb. EGW speaks of the influence of believing parents on infants, as per John's quote above.

MM: Since not all infants are automatically heaven bound, what prevents them from going? if it's not sin, then what is it?

Tom: Their ability to form character in harmony with the principles of God's government. It's sin that prevents them from going, but not their own. The SOP quotes cited by John make that clear.

MM: Tom, if certain types of slaves will not go to heaven, because their masters beat them down to less than brute beasts (EW 276), how can God take infants to heaven who are no different than animals, as you pointed out above?

Tom: Because the infants which are taken to heaven have the ability to form characters in harmony with the principles of God's government, while the beaten slaves to not.

MM: Also, if God will make eternal decisions regarding certain people based on whether or not they would live happy lives in heaven, how is that different from what I posted about judging infants on the lives they would have lived if death hadn't taken them prematurely? Either way God is imputing a life that wasn't lived, right?

Tom: Because your view is looking at something hypothetical involving what might have happened had things been different, whereas my view is looking at what will actually happen. It's not a question of what would so-and-so have done if blah blah blah but will so-and-so be happy in heaven now if I resurrect him/her. Are they safe to save? That's not a hypothetical question, although the criteria God uses to make this decision has not been clearly laid out for us, as EGW points out.

Will, you're welcome. Yes, it is good to provoke one another to godliness and goodness. Heb 10:24.

Tom, good answers. Thank you. But I still don't see a major difference between "would have" and "will" as it pertains to the method God uses to determine which children will be in heaven. Both require divine insight and intuition, a knowledge of the beginning and end of all things.

The void? Well, yes, the period between conception and accountability. At what point do people start sinning? I believe it begins from the initial dawning of consciousness (i.e., in the mothers womb). As such, there is no void period. Since our will was, at the Fall, given into the control of Satan, who has been working ruin in mankind ever since, we cannot not sin.

Not until we're born again do we possess the ability, by faith, to partake of the divine nature and holiness of God. Again, God does not hold children accountable for their sinful thoughts, feelings, motives, words, or behaviour until they reach a point where they know the difference between right and wrong. Whether they are saved or lost, if they should die before they arrive at the age of accountability, is something that only God knows.

However, there is no neutral ground, no void, no middle place. That's why the gospel commission is so important. Souls are dying daily for want of the gospel. We are not automatically saved at birth, we must be born again. The reason we must be born again is because our first birth was defective. "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3. We must be adopted to go to heaven.

MB 94
No one can occupy a neutral position; there is no middle class, who neither love God nor serve the enemy of righteousness. Christ is to live in His human agents and work through their faculties and act through their capabilities. Their will must be submitted to His will; they must act with His Spirit. Then it is no more they that live, but Christ that lives in them. He who does not give himself wholly to God is under the control of another power, listening to another voice, whose suggestions are of an entirely different character. Half-and-half service places the human agent on the side of the enemy as a successful ally of the hosts of darkness. When men who claim to be soldiers of Christ engage with the confederacy of Satan, and help along his side, they prove themselves enemies of Christ. They betray sacred trusts. They form a link between Satan and the true soldiers, so that through these agencies the enemy is constantly working to steal away the hearts of Christ's soldiers. {MB 94.1}

I haven't read the discussion, but in my view we are born sinners because we are born selfish (with a selfish human nature), and selfishness is sin, whether expressed in acts or not; besides, by selfishness we are born separated from God.

"Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God. But provision is made for the repenting sinner, so that by faith in the atonement of the only begotten Son of God, he may receive forgiveness of sin, find justification, receive adoption into the heavenly family, and become an inheritor of the kingdom of God. Transformation of character is wrought through the operation of the Holy Spirit, which works upon the human agent, implanting in him, according to his desire and consent to have it done, a new nature. The image of God is restored to the soul, and day by day he is strenghtened and renewed by grace, and is enabled more and more perfectly to reflect the character of Christ in righteousness and true holiness" (RH, September 17, 1895).

"The inheritance of children is that of sin. Sin has separated them from God. Jesus gave His life that He might unite the broken links to God. As related to the first Adam, men receive from him nothing but guilt and the sentence of death. But Christ steps in and passes over the ground where Adam fell, enduring every test in man's behalf. . . . Christ's perfect example and the grace of God are given him to enable him to train his sons and daughters to be sons and daughters of God. It is by teaching them, line upon line, precept upon precept, how to give the heart and will up to Christ that Satan's power is broken." {CG 475.3}

Why not me Tom? I say Amen!
Since by sinful nature you mean "sinful flesh", and I trust you mean that he overcame by divine nature which he also gives us.

I'd say He overcame by faith, as we may as well.

I say Amen too (as expected).

The Bible says it's sin that separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2), not being born. Separation is the result of voluntary choices on our part, not the involuntary act of being born.

Unless someone wants to say that fetuses transgress God's law in the womb; that's the only way we can be born sinners!