Tom, I understand your problem, but that is part of the problem. We do not need a synonym for "sinful flesh". Sinful flesh is clear by itself.

What we are looking for is an antonym for "divine nature"; because that is the part that needs to be realized.

It is necessary to make a difference between the flesh and the spirit.

So I have a problem with you using sinful nature as a synonym of sinful flesh, because then it would follow that divine nature would be understood as divine flesh which is wrong.

To me it is obvious that sinful nature would answer to divine nature. Do you have a better antonym?

[ July 01, 2005, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

In your above qotes, except for Nichols (and I do not know what he meant) all the others I understand to be using the terms as I have defined them.

The modern scripture interpretations you quoted (which BTW are not translations, are erroneous).

Tom,

A happy sabbath to you and to all. Just a quick note about the holy flesh movement. You can find further details about it here:
http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll/egw-comp/section14818.htm/book15013.htm/chapter15023.htm

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll/egw-comp/section12951.htm/book13914.htm/chapter13927.htm

The adepts of the movement did not claim that Christ was born with holy flesh, but that He acquired it at the garden of Gethsemane.
And of course Christ could be tempted from within, for appetite is primarily a temptation from within.
Christ had the natural passions of human nature:

"Those who overcome will follow the example of Christ by bringing bodily appetites and passions under the control of enlightened conscience and reason." {Con 74.3}

Christ was subject to the law of heredity, and the power of appetites and passions was much greater at the time He came to the world than when Adam was tempted:

From the time of Adam to that of Christ, self-indulgence had increased the power of the appetites and passions, until they had almost unlimited control.{TSDF 152.2}

That's why

In our own strength it is impossible for us to deny the clamors of our fallen nature. Through this channel Satan will bring temptation upon us. Christ knew that the enemy would come to every human being, to take advantage of hereditary weakness, and by his false insinuations to ensnare all whose trust is not in God. And by passing over the ground which man must travel, our Lord has prepared the way for us to overcome. {TSDF 154.2}

Just a few quotes that I have found on this subject:

"He (Christ)took our sinful natures and our sinful flesh..." G.E. Fifield, GC Bulletin 1897, page 13, col.1

"He took our sins and our sinful nature."
E.K.Slade, Conference Pres., Union Pres. RH 4/21/38, pg.3, col.4

"God does not condemn us for being shaped in iniquity, and for being born with sinful propensities." Lewis F. Were, Australasian Signs of the Times, 8/6/28, pg.13, col.1

“His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own.” (6 MR 111) “Think of Christ’s humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset.” (4 BC 1147) “In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature.” (RH 8-22-1907) “In doing this He took upon Himself the nature of weak, sinful humanity, and came to this world to battle with the powers of darkness.” (2 S&T 299)

“He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world.” (7A 450) “Many who profess godliness do not inquire into the reason of Christ’s long period of fasting and suffering in the wilderness. His anguish was not so much from enduring the pangs of hunger as from His sense of the fearful result of the indulgence of appetite and passion upon the race.” (1 SM 284) “He assumed human nature, with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations.” (3 SM 132) “A divine-human saviour, He came to stand at the head of the fallen race, to share in their experience from childhood to manhood.” (7A 444)

“Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those He wished to save. In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; yet He took upon Him our sinful nature.” (7A 452) “Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. The Godhead was not made human, and the human was not deified by the blending together of the two natures. Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering.” (6 MR 112)

Please note that sinful nature and sinful disloyalty are totally different aspects of human nature. Jesus possessed the one, but not the other.

“Through the provision made when God and the Son of God made a covenant to rescue man from the bondage of Satan, every facility was provided that human nature should come into union with His divine nature. In such a nature was our Lord tempted. He could have yielded to Satan’s lying suggestions as did Adam, but we should adore and glorify the Lamb of God that He did not in a single point yield one jot or one tittle.” (6 MR 112) “He came into our world to maintain a pure, sinless character, and to refute Satan’s lie that it was not possible for human beings to keep the law of God. Christ came to live the law in His human character in just that way in which all may live the law in human nature if they will do as Christ was doing.” (6 MR 111)

Remember, sinful nature and sinful character are totally different aspects of human nature. Again, Jesus possessed the one, but not the other.

“It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man’s nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life.” (7A 452)

“In our humanity, Christ was to redeem Adam’s failure. But when Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation.” (DA 117)

3T 84
The unsanctified will and passions must be crucified. This may be regarded as a close and severe work. Yet it must be done, or you will hear the terrible sentence from the mouth of Jesus: "Depart." You can do all things through Christ, who strengtheneth you. You are of that age when the will, the appetite, and the passions clamor for indulgence. God has implanted these in your nature for high and holy purposes. It is not necessary that they should become a curse to you by being debased. They will become this only when you refuse to submit to the control of reason and conscience. {3T 84.1}

AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

Jesus was born with these same appetites and passions, which He kept under the control of a sanctified mind and will. He used them for high and holy purposes, just like we may, in Christ.

I agree with what you said, Mike. Christ was born affected by sin (with the bodily, carnal passions of human nature, which had their power greatly increased since the fall of Adam), but not infected with sin. He was not born loving sin, like us.

"Here the test to Christ was far greater than that of Adam and Eve, for Christ took our nature, fallen but not corrupted, and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God. To suppose He was not capable of yielding to temptation places Him where He cannot be a perfect example for man, and the force and the power of this part of Christ's humiliation, which is the most eventful, is no instruction or help to human beings. {16MR 182.3}

"The natural heart loves sin". {SpTB07 3.3}

"The human heart loves sin and hates righteousness." {BEcho, April 9, 1894 par. 3}

Hebrews 1:9 "Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades."

"As he is our example in all things, so he became a brother in our infirmities, but not a companion in our sins. His nature recoiled from evil, and in a sinful world he endured anguish and torture of soul." {ST, February 10, 1887 par. 11}

Yes, and I agree with you, too. His human nature craved sin, but by partaking of the divine nature, in the same way we may and must, He resisted the sinful clamorings of His fallen nature. He hated sin and loved righteousness.

The quotes you posted above also imply infants naturally hate righteousness and love sin. Which is also why they must be born again, why they must begin partaking of the divine nature (in the same way Jesus did). Jesus never, ever wavered between sin and righteousness. He resolutely resisted sin. So it may be with us if we will walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man in the same way Jesus did.

Rosangela, you seem to be stating that you believe Christ was tempted from within, on the point of appeitite. This is the post-lapsarion position. If this is what you believe, then we are in harmony. This is what it means to say that Christ took our fallen nature, and this position is in harmony with what EGW, Jones, Waggoner, Prescott, Haskell, et al taught, and the traditional Adventist position.

Noone has ever taught that Christ was infected by sin. This sounds like some sort of caracature of the post-lapsarian position.

The important point is that Christ accepted the law of heredity and that biologically He was no different than any other human being. He did not have holy flesh; i.e. He could be tempted from within, on the point of appetite, for example.

John, here's Jone's statement again:

quote:

---

And that this is likeness to man as He is in His flesh, sinful nature, and not as He was in His original [heavenly] sinless nature ...

---

Note that Jones equates "sinful nature" with "flesh." The modern translations are using the terms in the way they are nomrally used. The statement by Gulley is also using "sinful nature" as something genetic.

The term "sinful nature" is normally used this way by SDA's. You can look at the works of Christology from the 19th century on, and you'll see this.

Here's an example picked at random from a web site which dislikes Waggoner's teachings:

quote:

---

His history clearly demonstrates where such ideas as "effective" justification, sanctification by faith alone, the sinful nature of Christ, perfectionism and the mystical atonement lead.

---

Note the use of the phrase "sinful nature". This can only be genetic.

This is from Waggoner's book, "Christ and His Righteousness"

quote:

---

The spotless Lamb of God, who knew no sin, was made to be sin. Sinless, yet not only counted as a sinner but actually taking upon Himself sinful nature.

---

What can "sinful nature" be here but "sinful flesh"?

This is from another website:

quote:

---

Did Christ have a sinful nature like ours and, therefore, one that challenges us all to obey as perfectly as He did, or is He primarily our Savior first and our Exemplar second? Can sinful human beings perfectly obey a holy law or are the believing saints covered by the imputed merits of Christ all their days and in the last judgment?

http://goodnewsunlimited.org/library/atodayinterview/part1.cfm

---

From Ellen White:

quote:

---

He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. (Medical Ministry, p. 181).

---

What could this mean but something genetic?

There's no end to these quotes. "Sinful nature" has been used as synonomous to "sinful flesh" by countless SDA authors for I don't know how long -- at least over 100 years.

Regarding an antonymn to "divine nature" I would suggest "carnal nature" or "carnal mind".