James, I believe Jesus drained the dregs of the cup. It was empty and dry and when He triumphantly proclaimed, It is finished. He consumed and conquered the cup and lived to tell about it. Satan, the scapegoat, will pay the "full" and "final penalty" and suffer the "final punishment". Unlike Jesus, however, he will not live to tell about it. He will succumb and die eternally. No resurrection.


Sister White defines the "full and final penalty" as the "second death". "He must suffer the second death, which is the full and final penalty for the transgressor of the law of God." {1T 533.1} The "sense of the loss of His Father's favor" will not be withdrawn. He will not accomplish his work. He will not drain the cup, win the battle, be victorious, or be a conqueror before he voluntary lays down and takes up his life.


The elements highlighted in red in the passages above are not parts of the second death.

Brother, you are arguing against me on the level of Semantics.

If you believe Jesus drank the cup to the dregs then you believe He died the second death, because the cup of God's indignation is His wrath, it is hell or the second death. It is hell to drink the cup, if you drink it (sympathize with Jesus having drunk it) on this side of death you live later, if you don't, you die at the second resurrection.

The reason Jesus was not HELD by the second death is because He had not sinned. He willingly suffered the consequences of every sin that would ever take place, literally entering into the hearts of wicked men, literally suffering the same torment as every man who has ever lived would have felt during the second death.

If you agree with all these statements which I have been presenting since the first day I was prompted to post here then why are you arguing over semantics?

Jesus 'suffered' the second death for us. Is that better?

He died under the curse and became 'sin for us' in Gethsemane carrying these to the cross for EVERY MAN. This is why every man could be saved.

If He became sin for us, becoming the serpent raised on the pole so we can look and live, and the death that sin caused is cast into the lake of fire, then Jesus died while under the curse of being Cut Off from the Father which means He died the second death for us.

This is what gives Him the right to put the confessed sins of God's people on the head of Satan so he can die the second death in the end. But Satan does not die with the sins of the whole world on his head, only the confessed sins of God's people cleansed from the Ark, so Satan does not even come close to suffering as much as Jesus did in Gethsemane. (Think on this!)

Satan was not the sin bearer, Jesus was. You make it sound as if Satan pays the ultimate penalty for sin.

"It is a fearful thing for the unrepenting sinner to fall into the hands of the living God. This is proved by the history of the destruction of the old world by a flood, by the record of the fire which fell from heaven and destroyed the inhabitants of Sodom. But never was this proved to so great an extent as in the agony of Christ, the Son of the infinite God, when He bore the wrath of God for a sinful world. It was in consequence of sin, the transgression of God’s law, that the Garden of Gethsemane has become pre-eminently the place of suffering to a sinful world. No sorrow, no agony, can measure with that which was endured by the Son of God. {5BC 1103.3}

Here it seen that Jesus became accounted as one of the unrepentant sinners here. He carried everyone's sin, not just the confessed ones like Satan in the end.

Isn't it more than semantics if I believe Jesus consumed and conquered the second death and you believe the second death consumed and killed Jesus?

Now you're putting words into my mouth. Where did I say that? You say I said something I never said so you are bearing false witness.

Here is the complete picture. (If you read the blog I posted and the beginning of this thread it is all there http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html)

Jesus left the upper room knowing His mission was to be forsaken and suffer our second death. He did it willingly to save us. It was not forced on Him He did it willingly.

When He left the Eastern Gate of Jerusalem, when He crossed the brook Kidron, the place of regeneration for sinners, the stream Mrs White was told had a "secret spring of living water" at the bottom of it, this is where He willingly left the communion with His Father, knowing He was to be 'Cut off'. When He prayed that the cup pass from Him and no answer from the Father He still continued and said "your will be done". He had faith even though He could not see through to the resurrection.

His heart willingly bore our sins and suffered for us so we would not have to die the second death. Where in anything I wrote under the influance of the Holy Spirit did I say "the second death consumed and killed Jesus"?

You are a master of double talk. I could quote three things you misquoted in a few posts. Why are you doing this? I don't think your stupid, so that leaves the fact that you have another motivation/strategy for using lies like this.

"...He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father’s wrath upon Him as man’s substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God...." {CSA 39.2}

The sense of sin, dying the second death is what broke the heart of Christ but He did it willingly so He could conquer the second death for us by allowing His heart to broken by being cut off from the Father. The second death is what broke His heart but He laid His life down so we could live.

"Behold Him in the wilderness, in Gethsemane, upon the cross! The spotless Son of God took upon Himself the burden of sin. He who had been one with God, felt in His soul the awful separation that sin makes between God and man. This wrung from His lips the anguished cry, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” Matthew 27:46. It was the burden of sin, the sense of its terrible enormity, of its separation of the soul from God—it was this that broke the heart of the Son of God." {SC 13.1}

If you are a true brother you would recant your last statement but I wont hold my breath.

". . . you believe the second death consumed and killed Jesus". I recant. Instead, you believe the "second death is what broke His heart but He laid His life down so we could live."

Sister White defines the "full and final penalty" as the "second death". "He must suffer the second death, which is the full and final penalty for the transgressor of the law of God." {1T 533.1} Satan, not Jesus, will "suffer the final punishment" with the sins of the saved. Satan, not Jesus, will pay the full and final penalty in the lake of fire with the sins of the saved. How do you explain these inspired insights?


1. Before Jesus voluntarily ended His own life, the "sense of the loss of His Father's favor was withdrawn".
2. "Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do".
3. "The battle had been won."
4. "By faith, Christ was victor."

These are not part of the second death experience. How do you explain them?

First of all, the quote you keep misquoting, "He must suffer the second death, which is the full and final penalty for the transgressor of the law of God." {1T 533.1} is not about Satan at all Mountain Man, and it freaks me out that you maintain your haughty attitude while continually misquoting the evidence you claim to support your conjecture. Your quote is about every Sabbath keeping sinner that has not continued to keep the Sabbath...

Here is the complete quote from page 533 of Testimonies volume 1;

"The Sabbath was made for the benefit of man; and to knowingly transgress the holy commandment forbidding labor upon the seventh day is a crime in the sight of heaven which was of such magnitude under the Mosaic law as to require the death of the offender. But this was not all that the offender was to suffer, for God would not take a transgressor of His law to heaven. He must suffer the second death, which is the full and final penalty for the transgressor of the law of God." {1T 533.1}

So are you saying that every sinner in the second resurrection suffers the full penalty for every sin ever committed by every sinner? Are men the sin bearers now? This verse is about those who have un-confessed sins upon their record at their death, thus they are resurrected in the second resurrection and their sins are upon their own heads. Unconverted sinners die the second death for their own un-confessed sins. I am quite certain you knew this and are only baiting me because you can't be this ignorant.

The scapegoat only received the confessed sins of Israel which had been transferred to the Ark of the Covenant placed there through the propitiation, surely you must know these things being a teacher of Israel eh?

About your specific last question, "These are not part of the second death experience. How do you explain them?" Here is a quote, I hope you see what is here for you, if not I will explain.

(In Gethsemane) "The disciples were suddenly aroused from their slumber by a bright light shining upon and around the Son of God. They started up in amazement, and beheld a heavenly being, clothed in garments of light, bending over their prostrate Master. With his right hand he lifted the head of the divine sufferer upon his bosom, and with his left hand he pointed toward Heaven. His voice was like the sweetest music, as he uttered soothing words presenting to the mind of Christ the grand results of the victory he had gained over the strong and wily foe. Christ was victor over Satan; and, as the result of his triumph, millions were to be victors with him in his glorified kingdom. {3SP 101.1}

Here she says that Christ was victor over Satan in Gethsemane, which is where I saw Jesus dying my second death sweating blood on the same spot the Red Heifers blood was cast, beginning the three days and three nights sign of Jonah.

Do you agree Gethsemane would begin His second death experience? So He was victor over Satan in Gethsemane and this would be the second death correct? Fill in the blanks for the rest.

I better bow out before Admin shuts us down.