I believe our sinful flesh is what generates and communicates unholy thoughts and feelings, which we must recognize and resist as if it were the very voice of Satan. Our sinful old man traits of character are the results of repeatedly giving in to the mind of our fallen flesh (i.e., that part of our sinful nature that wants us to meet our legitmate needs for food and fellowship [and all other aspects related to appetites and passions] in a sinful way).

Are we saying the same thing?

John: “His nature recoiled from evil”
Was it his “heart-spirit” or his flesh that recoiled from evil?

Tom: The word "nature" can mean many things, depending on the context. Webster's online lists 9 definitions. The printed dictionary I'm sure would show many more definitions than this. As the Spirit of Prophesy points out, there is not a one to one correspondence of meanings and words. We just need to do the best we can with the limitations of language we're stuck with.

In ths quote above, it's obvious that Christ's flesh is not being referred to. Of the one's given by Webster, this one appears to me to be the closest: "a spontaneous attitude (as of generosity)"


John: “actually taking upon Himself sinful nature.”
Was it our “sinful heart-spirit” that he took upon himself or was it “sinful flesh”?

Tom: This is clearly refering to Christ's flesh, or genetic makeup. The context in which the SOP uses the phrase "sinful nature" (or "fallen nature" or "degenerate nature" or other synonymns) makes this clear.

John: Since “nature” has lost definition, I have been hard-done by trying to find a scriptural synonym for “nature”; so I would like to introduce a compound expression “heart-spirit” for “nature”. This is the closest I could come up with that would give it scriptural meaning.

If we clarify the meaning and return to scriptural definition, we will understand better what they were saying, what we are saying, and what the scriptures are saying.

So let us use “sinful flesh” where such is meant,
and let us use “sinful heart-spirit” and “divine heart-spirit” where such is meant.

I hope this will be adopted.

Tom: Why not just speak of the mind? The Scriptures speak of the "mind of Christ" so this is certainly Scriptural. Or "attitude of Christ" was some versions put it, which would also agree with Webster's definition.

It's a challenge to get these things right, isn't it? We first need to get the ideas right, then express them in clear ways. We have both the fuzziness of our own thoughts, and the impreciseness of language to deal with.

John: Tom I find your intentional use of the word “nature” synonymous with “flesh” disturbing. Please do not excuse yourself on ‘countless SDA authors’. I have no contention with them.

I would like you to define your thought as “sinful flesh” and stop using “nature” as a synonym for “flesh” which scripture does not allow.

Tom: I've written hundreds of pages on this subject, John, over many years. It's not an "intentional" usage designed to upset you. It's simply the way the phrase is commonly used when discussing Christology, not just by Adventists, but by non-Adventists as well. You are suggesting a non-standard usage to replace it, which is only used by yourself, as far as I know.

If you are happy with the term "sinful flesh" as opposed to "sinful nature" I will try to abide by that, but please be patient, as again, I've used the term "sinful nature" in the way others, and myself, are accustomed to use it literally thousands of times, so it's not so easy to change something like that on a dime.


John: These are two definitely different meanings and must be kept so. Without this difference you can talk forever to no end and no understanding.

Tom: I agree that it's important to make meanings clear, and language should reflect this, but in defence of my usage of the term "sinful nature" I would reiterate the agruments I have set forth previously, that Ellen White, A. T. Jones, Waggoner, Presscott and countless other SDA's and non-SDA's have used the term the same way. Nevertheless in deference to your request, I will try to avoid the term.

John: If you are quoting, then please clarify which meaning you think was used.

I hope this will be adopted.

Tom: I'm only aware of one meaning for "sinful nature" ever being used, which is "sinful flesh."

Regarding the old man and the mind of the flesh, I think I see these terms as MM has been describing them, and John as well, as both are saying the same thing as far as I can tell.

Tom,

The statement that Adam could only be tempted from without, while we are tempted from within has no foundation. Appetite is a temptation from within, whether for Adam and Eve, for Christ, or for us. Eve was not tempted just to eat of the fruit because it was “desirable to make one wise”, but also because it was “good for food” (Gen. 3:6).

There was NO difference in the way Adam and Eve were tempted and in the way we are tempted, except for the fact that the natural passions and appetites of human nature had been greatly increased after thousands of years of condescension, so it was much more difficult for Christ (and it is for us) to keep them under subjection, than it was for Adam.

Notice that the essence of temptation continues to be the same:
“So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate” (Gen. 3:6).
“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world” (1 John 2:16).

Notice the parallel:
Lust of the flesh – "the woman saw that the tree was good for food"
Lust of the eyes – "that it was pleasant to the eyes"
Pride of life – "a tree desirable to make one wise"; "You will be like God, knowing good and evil" (v. 5)

The temptations of Christ also follow the same pattern:
Lust of the flesh - "And he ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was hungry. The devil said to him, 'If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread'" (Luke 4:2,3).

Lust of the eyes - "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and SHOWED him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; and he said to him, 'All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me'" (Matt. 3:8,9).

Pride of life - "And he took him to Jerusalem, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, 'If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here; for it is written: He will give his angels charge of you, to guard you, and: On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone'" (vv. 9-11).

So the essence of temptation is the same, both for fallen and for unfallen beings.

“The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand. They were urged upon Him in as much greater degree as His character is superior to ours. With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. These were the temptations that overcame Adam and Eve, and that so readily overcome us. {DA 116.4}

Adam had no self that had to be denied in order to do God's will, also Eve. They had to go against their biological make up in order to transgress.

We are the other way around. We cannot avoid sinning except for a power outside of ourselves. We are dependent upon the grace of God in order to overcome.

Christ was in the same situation we are, not the situation of Adam. That is, Christ could not have overcome except by relying on God's grace, plus He had a self which had to be denied.

You write there is no difference in the way Adam and Eve was tempted and how we are tempted except in that the natural passions have greatly increased. I disagree with this statement. I'm not sure of what you mean by "natural passions" but whatever they are, we not only have those, but we have unnatural passions as well by which we are tempted, in addition to the natural ones. Secondly, we have a nature which is inclined towards self. We must deny self in order to do God's will, which is an unnatural action for us, impossible apart from God's grace. This was not the case for Adam.

I would agree that the nature of the temptations which Christ faced in the wilderness (and throughout His life) were the same as ours, but not the temptations of Adam and Eve. I see their temptations as much different, because they had neither inherited or cultivated tendencies towards evil. That fundamentally changes the nature of temptation.

Here's another illustration which might help clarify what I mean by being tempted from within (BTW I appreciate your pressing for clarification as it's easy to just use familiar phrases without there being understanding as to what the words actually mean)

quote:

---

The story is told of a man whose besetting sin was a violent temper. He would frequently become very angry, but he laid all the blame upon the people with whom he lived, who were so exasperating. Nobody, he declared, could do right among such people. So he resolved, as many others have done, to "leave the world," and become a hermit. He chose a cave in the forest for his dwelling-place, far from any other human habitation. In the morning he took his jug to a spring near by to get water for his morning meal. The rock was moss-grown, and the continual flow of water had made it very slippery. As he set his jug down under the stream, it slid away. He put it back, and again it was driven away. Two or three times was this repeated, and each time the replacing of the jug was done with increasing energy. Finally the hermit's patience was utterly exhausted, and exclaiming, "I'll see if you'll not stay!" he picked the vessel up and set it down with such vehemence that it was broken to pieces. There was nobody to blame but himself, and he had the good sense to see that it was not the world around him but the world inside of him that made him sin.(from The Glad Tidings)

---

Another text which can be of help:

"When our first parents were placed in the beautiful garden of Eden, they were tested in regard to their loyalty to God. They were free to choose the service of God, or by disobedience to ally themselves with the enemy of God and man. . . . If they disregard God's commands, and listened to the voice of Satan, as he spoke through the serpent, they would not only forfeit their claim to Eden, but to life itself. {TMK 14.2}
"The first great moral lesson given Adam was that of self-denial. The reins of self-government were placed in his hands. Judgment, reason, and conscience were to bear sway. . . . {TMK 14.3}
"Adam and Eve were permitted to partake of every tree in the Garden save one. There was only a single prohibition. The forbidden tree was as attractive and lovely as any of the trees in the Garden. It was called the tree of knowledge, because in partaking of that tree, of which God had said, 'Thou shalt not eat of it,' (Gen. 2:17) they would have a knowledge of sin, an experience in disobedience." {TMK 14.4}

Rosangela, do you believe the appetites and passions that Adam and Eve possessed manifested themselves in the same way before and after the Fall? Sister White indicates that the nature of mankind changed radically after the Fall. She also says that getting it right is important. “The subjects of the Sabbath, the nature of man, and the testimony of Jesus are the great and important truths to be understood; these will prove as an anchor to hold God's people in these perilous times. {1T 300.1}

PP 53
But should they once yield to temptation, their nature would become so depraved that in themselves they would have no power and no disposition to resist Satan. {PP 53.2}

5BC 1128
The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. {5BC 1128.4}

1BC 1082
The Lord created man out of the dust of the earth. He made Adam a partaker of His life, His nature. There was breathed into him the breath of the Almighty, and he became a living soul. Adam was perfect in form--strong, comely, pure, bearing the image of his Maker (MS 102, 1903). {1BC 1081.7}

3T 343
There is in the nature of man, when not under the direct influence of the Spirit of God, a disposition to envy, jealousy, and cruel distrust, which, if not subdued, will lead to a desire to undermine and tear down others, while selfish spirits will seek to build themselves up upon their ruins. {3T 343.2}

MB 54
It is impossible for man, of himself, to keep this law; for the nature of man is depraved, deformed, and wholly unlike the character of God. The works of the selfish heart are "as an unclean thing;" and "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." Isaiah 64:6. {MB 54.1}