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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: kland] #137524
11/16/11 02:59 PM
11/16/11 02:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
You are correct. I believe the voice of God is heard giving the day and hour, then He "boards" the cloud.

The following passages make it clear the plagues are poured out after Jesus leaves the Holiest, after He boards the East bound cloud.

Quote:
Then I saw that after Jesus leaves the sanctuary the plagues will be poured out. Said the angel, It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. I saw that at the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. {12MR 248.2}

And I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest, and as he came out we heard the tinkling of bells, and knew our High Priest was coming out. . . . And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood and he laid off his priestly garment and put on his kingly robe, took his place on the cloud which carried him to the east where it first appeared to the saints on earth, a small black cloud, which was the sign of the Son of Man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days, the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet. Ellen G. Harmon {DS, March 14, 1846 par. 2}

When Christ shall cease His work as mediator in man's behalf, then this time of trouble will begin. --PP 201 (1890). {LDE 253.1}

When Jesus leaves the most holy His restraining Spirit is withdrawn from rulers and people. --1T 204 (1859). {LDE 255.1}

I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. --EW 36 (1851). {LDE 256.2}

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. --GC 613, 614 (1911). {LDE 265.6}

The "voice of God" announcing the day and hour of Jesus' arrival is uttered toward the end of the outpouring of the plagues. If, as you say, Jesus leaves the Holiest after the "voice of God" is uttered, well, the sequence outlined in the passages above doesn't fit.

Quote:
Regarding the rest, were we talking about different times of trouble? The voice of God comes after the time of trouble I had been talking about, the 3.5 years. Could the time of trouble you were talking about be maybe a symbolic hour in Revelation? And could she be referring to even another than those two?

I know of no quote where Ellen says how much time will lapse between the close of probation and the arrival of Jesus (i.e. the great time of trouble we have been talking about). I also know of no quote where she says how much time will lapse between the establishment and enforcement of Sunday Laws and the close of probation (i.e. the short time of trouble I recently introduced above).

I won't be surprised, though, if we find out in future, looking back at the two times of trouble, that 3.5 years lapsed between the establishment and enforcement of Sunday Laws and the arrival of Jesus. However, the part where things get really bad and nasty I suspect will last a short period of time. Not that we will think so as we are in the throes of enduring it.

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Mountain Man] #137551
11/17/11 12:58 PM
11/17/11 12:58 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
You are correct. I believe the voice of God is heard giving the day and hour, then He "boards" the cloud.

The following passages make it clear the plagues are poured out after Jesus leaves the Holiest, after He boards the East bound cloud.

Quote:
Then I saw that after Jesus leaves the sanctuary the plagues will be poured out. Said the angel, It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. I saw that at the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. {12MR 248.2}

And I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest, and as he came out we heard the tinkling of bells, and knew our High Priest was coming out. . . . And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood and he laid off his priestly garment and put on his kingly robe, took his place on the cloud which carried him to the east where it first appeared to the saints on earth, a small black cloud, which was the sign of the Son of Man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days, the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet. Ellen G. Harmon {DS, March 14, 1846 par. 2}

When Christ shall cease His work as mediator in man's behalf, then this time of trouble will begin. --PP 201 (1890). {LDE 253.1}

When Jesus leaves the most holy His restraining Spirit is withdrawn from rulers and people. --1T 204 (1859). {LDE 255.1}

I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. --EW 36 (1851). {LDE 256.2}

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. --GC 613, 614 (1911). {LDE 265.6}


I don't see where those quotes say that the plagues are poured out "after He boards the East bound cloud". Maybe you have some others in mind?

Quote:

The "voice of God" announcing the day and hour of Jesus' arrival is uttered toward the end of the outpouring of the plagues. If, as you say, Jesus leaves the Holiest after the "voice of God" is uttered, well, the sequence outlined in the passages above doesn't fit.
I'm not sure where I said that. I'm sorry I gave you that impression. I would think we will hear the voice of God after He leaves the Holiest.

Quote:
Regarding the rest, were we talking about different times of trouble? The voice of God comes after the time of trouble I had been talking about, the 3.5 years. Could the time of trouble you were talking about be maybe a symbolic hour in Revelation? And could she be referring to even another than those two?


Quote:

I know of no quote where Ellen says how much time will lapse between the close of probation and the arrival of Jesus (i.e. the great time of trouble we have been talking about). I also know of no quote where she says how much time will lapse between the establishment and enforcement of Sunday Laws and the close of probation (i.e. the short time of trouble I recently introduced above).
No, but what about the chapter 12 of Daniel, the one Ellen White says we should study for the last days?

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: kland] #137553
11/17/11 01:18 PM
11/17/11 01:18 PM
C
Charity  Offline
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I understand where you're coming from MM in being uncomfortable with a future application of the 3.5 years. Although I'm persuaded there is a future application to them, I have to say I don't know exactly where they fit in and I don't think anyone fully understands it.

That Daniel 12 applies especially to the future is clear from inspiration but beyond that we should, in my view not let issues like this and the 'daily' side track us from our prophetic mission of giving the three angels' messages - the Ten Commandments and the faith of Christ. Let's invest the bulk of our energy in self-sacrificing, practical, healing (healing in the broadest sense) ministry.

Last edited by Mark Shipowick; 11/17/11 01:34 PM.
Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Charity] #137555
11/17/11 02:10 PM
11/17/11 02:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
I understand where you're coming from MM in being uncomfortable with a future application of the 3.5 years. Although I'm persuaded there is a future application to them, I have to say I don't know exactly where they fit in and I don't think anyone fully understands it.

That Daniel 12 applies especially to the future is clear from inspiration but beyond that we should, in my view not let issues like this and the 'daily' side track us from our prophetic mission of giving the three angels' messages - the Ten Commandments and the faith of Christ. Let's invest the bulk of our energy in self-sacrificing, practical, healing (healing in the broadest sense) ministry.

Thank you, Mark. I agree. By the way, would you mind answering the questions I addressed to Kland below?

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Charity] #137556
11/17/11 02:11 PM
11/17/11 02:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
"Then I saw that after Jesus leaves the sanctuary the plagues will be poured out. Said the angel, It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. I saw that at the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. {12MR 248.2}

"And I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest, and as he came out we heard the tinkling of bells, and knew our High Priest was coming out. . . . And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood and he laid off his priestly garment and put on his kingly robe, took his place on the cloud which carried him to the east where it first appeared to the saints on earth, a small black cloud, which was the sign of the Son of Man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days, the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet. Ellen G. Harmon {DS, March 14, 1846 par. 2}

K: I don't see where those quotes say that the plagues are poured out "after He boards the East bound cloud". Maybe you have some others in mind?

Do you agree Jesus boards the East bound cloud from the holiest? Or, do you think He boards it elsewhere after He leaves the holiest? "And I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest . . . a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood . . . took his place on the cloud . . . While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east, which took a number of days". Do you agree the "number of days" begins after Jesus boards the East bound cloud? And, do you agree the plagues are poured out after He leaves the sanctuary on the East bound cloud? "Then I saw that after Jesus leaves the sanctuary the plagues will be poured out." Again, do you agree Jesus leaves the sanctuary on the East bound cloud? If not, what other conveyance does Ellen say He uses?

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Mountain Man] #137559
11/17/11 08:05 PM
11/17/11 08:05 PM
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Charity  Offline
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It's not a good idea to estimate the waiting period between the first and last plague and the return of Christ. We need to be 'in it for the long term'. Hope for the best but be prepared for waiting and delays. Only those with the patience of the saints will endure the test.

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Charity] #137560
11/17/11 08:14 PM
11/17/11 08:14 PM
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Charity  Offline
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Regarding my view of the sequence; 3.5 years starts at the first trumpet. Probation closes and the plagues start during the 6th trumpet when the winds are released. I'm not sure where the 3.5 years ends but my best guess at the moment is during the sixth trumpet because it seems likely to me that the two witnesses would end their 42 month testimony at about the time the winds are released.

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Charity] #137561
11/18/11 12:40 AM
11/18/11 12:40 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Mark, would you be willing to create a new thread using your last post (#137560) - Possible Sequence of the Trumpets and Plagues?

Also, I agree we shouldn't attempt to determine the lapse of time between the close of probation and the arrival of Jesus. However, I would appreciate it if you would address the following the questions:

1. Do you agree Jesus boards the East bound cloud while in the Holiest? "And I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest . . . a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood . . . took his place on the cloud . . . While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east, which took a number of days".

2. Do you agree the "number of days" begins when Jesus boards the East bound cloud?

3. And, do you agree the plagues are poured out after He leaves the Holiest on the East bound cloud? "Then I saw that after Jesus leaves the sanctuary the plagues will be poured out."

Quote:
Then I saw that after Jesus leaves the sanctuary the plagues will be poured out. Said the angel, It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. I saw that at the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. {12MR 248.2}

"And I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest, and as he came out we heard the tinkling of bells, and knew our High Priest was coming out. . . . And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood and he laid off his priestly garment and put on his kingly robe, took his place on the cloud which carried him to the east where it first appeared to the saints on earth, a small black cloud, which was the sign of the Son of Man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days, the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet. Ellen G. Harmon {DS, March 14, 1846 par. 2}

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Mountain Man] #143973
07/05/12 02:20 AM
07/05/12 02:20 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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"And I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest, and as he came out we heard the tinkling of bells, and knew our High Priest was coming out. . . . And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood and he laid off his priestly garment and put on his kingly robe, took his place on the cloud which carried him to the east (out the heavenly eastern gate that Adam was escorted out of) where it first appeared to the saints on earth, a small black cloud, which was the sign of the Son of Man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days, the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet. Ellen G. Harmon {DS, March 14, 1846 par. 2}"

I love this quote. Notice how she says "I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest, and as he came out we heard the tinkling of bells, and knew our High Priest was coming out..."

She is giving insight into what the 144,000, who in the last days go wither Jesus goest, will literally be experiencing in real time at His coming out of the Most Holies. Like they are standing on the heavenly Mt Zion (Rev 14:1) with Jesus coming out to great them. But their body is here on earth suffering the most intense persecution men have EVER gone through. And on top of that Jesus is no longer in the sanctuary responding to their prayers. Everyone has been sealed into the truth or the lie here in this prophetic moment, and the Holy Spirit has already empowered these last day prophets, which causes those who wouldn't listen before to fall at their feet when the fulfillment comes. The day and the hour will be proclaimed when Jesus says it is finished, which is closer than the majority thinks.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: jamesonofthunder] #143975
07/05/12 02:39 AM
07/05/12 02:39 AM
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The atrocities and false enforced religion that happened in the 42 prophetic months will be repeated, but no prophecy is suspended on time any more.

The only mention of any period of time in the last day prophecies is the 'one hour' that the 10 horns (protestant churches) give their strength to the beast. This comes to two literal weeks.

Take what you know about the last days and squeeze them into a month and see the train heading with the speed of lightning to perdition with everyone on board save the remnant.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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