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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14413
07/19/05 12:16 AM
07/19/05 12:16 AM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Yes, it does, and I am pleasantly surprised, which makes me wonder if I have misunderstood something. I'm sorry to admit as much, but we rarely see eye to eye, which is also why I learn so much studying with you.
You mentioned you know of no time limit when the grace of God can save a sinner, which is probably the safest position to take as it relates to infants, babies, the ages of non-accountability, and adults guilty of sins of ignorance who are otherwise living in harmony with their conscience and convictions. In judgment we can trust God to do the right thing.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14414
07/19/05 06:32 PM
07/19/05 06:32 PM
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Brazil
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I´m spending some days at my parents´ house, and I don´t have a computer there. I´m writing from a cyber café. Tom, you said, quote:
We are by nature enemies of God, alientated against Him in our mind.
Correct, we are born that way, and that´s why we must be born again. But your opinion about Jesus is not clear to me. Do you think that He was born in this same condition or not?
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14415
07/19/05 06:55 PM
07/19/05 06:55 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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I think His humanity was biologically the same as ours, but Jesus was by nature God, so we cannot say of Him that He was an enemy of God by nature, since He was, of His own nature, God Himself. This is why the Scriptures say things like "the Word was made flesh" and that Christ was "made of a woman", "made under the law", and "made to be sin". The idea is that Christ became something which He was not by nature without losing what He already had, which was His own divinity, which is perfect in holiness.
The way the Spirit of Prophesy puts it is that Christ took our sinful nature upon His own sinless nature (something like that; the "our sinful nature" and "His sinless nature" part is right; it 's in Medical Missionary I think).
The purpose of Christ's ministry was to reveal the Father. This He did by emptying Himself, while at the same time revealing the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Why emptying Himself, He nevertheless remained full of divinity. Pretty cool, huh!
So, to summarize, His flesh was the same as ours, in terms of its biological structure (you wouldn't be able to discern something different about Christ's humanity, His DNA for example, by looking at it through a microscope) but He was different than we are in His performance (He never sinned in word, thought or deed) and in the fact that He was by nature (i.e. His own nature) divine and sinless.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14416
07/19/05 09:38 PM
07/19/05 09:38 PM
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Tom, would you also say, in addition to being biologically the same as us, that Jesus also inherited the same fallen flesh nature we inherited, that is, that part of our human makeup that tempts us, from within, to satisfy our legitimate needs (i.e. appetites and passions) in a sinful manner?
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14417
07/19/05 10:07 PM
07/19/05 10:07 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, would you also say, in addition to being biologically the same as us, that Jesus also inherited the same fallen flesh nature we inherited, that is, that part of our human makeup that tempts us, from within, to satisfy our legitimate needs (i.e. appetites and passions) in a sinful manner?
I wouldn't say "in addition to" because what you wrote as "in addition to" was addressing exactly the same thing I was encompassing by "biologically the same as us." I would say your description is equivalent to what I meant. By "biologically" I meant that which is passed by heredity.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14418
07/21/05 02:16 AM
07/21/05 02:16 AM
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I figured that's you meant, but there are those who do not include both when they say Jesus was biologically the same as us. They exclude the unholy voice aspect of sinful flesh.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14419
07/20/05 08:40 PM
07/20/05 08:40 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
They exclude the unholy voice aspect of sinful flesh.
What's this mean? Oh, must be "unholy vice." No, I wouldn't exclude that. His heredity stunk, just like ours does.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14420
07/24/05 11:52 AM
07/24/05 11:52 AM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
Jesus also inherited the same fallen flesh nature we inherited, that is, that part of our human makeup that tempts us, from within, to satisfy our legitimate needs (i.e. appetites and passions) in a sinful manner?
I wouldn’t say that our fallen flesh nature tempts us to satisfy our legitimate needs in a sinful manner, but that Satan tempts us to satisfy our legitimate needs in a sinful manner.
Summarizing my position: Jesus had our biological constitution, but not our depraved spiritual constitution - the selfishness and its fruits, with which we are born (our spiritual propensities to sin).
“Vanity is one of the strongest principles of our depraved natures, and Satan will constantly appeal to it with success.” {2T 494.1}
“Selfishness is the great law of our degenerate nature.” {TDG 162.1}
“Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God.” {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7} - That’s why babies need a Saviour.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14421
07/24/05 12:12 PM
07/24/05 12:12 PM
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OP
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Plowing
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"That’s why babies need a Saviour."
And how to babies and fetuses (a nod to MM) get saved? I'm very curious....
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14422
07/25/05 02:35 AM
07/25/05 02:35 AM
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quote:
Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God. But provision is made for the repenting sinner, so that by faith in the atonement of the only begotten Son of God, he may receive forgiveness of sin, find justification, receive adoption into the heavenly family, and become an inheritor of the kingdom of God. Transformation of character is wrought through the operation of the Holy Spirit, which works upon the human agent, implanting in him, according to his desire and consent to have it done, a new nature. The image of God is restored to the soul, and day by day he is strengthened and renewed by grace, and is enabled more and more perfectly to reflect the character of Christ in righteousness and true holiness. {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7}
Rosangela, would you agree that Jesus was born, incarnated, with the same "new nature" we are born again with? If so, what is the nature of the new, born again nature?
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