HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
Trainor, ekoorb1030, jibb555, MBloomfield, Dina
1324 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,216
Posts195,933
Members1,324
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
Rick H 22
kland 17
asygo 4
Daryl 3
September
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30
Member Spotlight
dedication
dedication
Canada
Posts: 6,577
Joined: April 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
8 registered members (dedication, Karen Y, TheophilusOne, Kevin H, Daryl, 3 invisible), 2,178 guests, and 14 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 22 of 30 1 2 20 21 22 23 24 29 30
Re: Born sinning or born sinners? #14443
07/27/05 09:22 PM
07/27/05 09:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Rosangela, I believe the best solution to understanding the humanity and divinity of Jesus is the fact He was born, as it were, born again. As such, He was not born a slave to sin, like we are. Unlike us, Jesus did not automatically act out the dictates of His fallen flesh nature.

He was born with the clamorings of His sinful flesh under the control of a sanctified mind and will. It is this aspect that is mysterious to us. How can a baby "keep under my body, and bring it into subjection"? But that's exactly what happened.

Though tempted in every way we are, from within and from without, Jesus never consented to sin. He was a partaker of the divine nature in the same way born again believers partake of the divine nature. He did not partake of His own divinity to resist temptation, rather, as our example, He was a partaker of the Father's divine nature. He resisted His sinful flesh nature in the same way born again believers must resist it.

Also, there is a difference between inheriting sinful TRAITS of character and inheriting sinful character. Everyone, including Jesus, inherits sinful traits of character, but no one inherits sinful character. Character is the stuff of choice and habits. We are not guilty of the sinful traits of character that we inherit from our ancestors. We are only held accountable for the traits of character that we ourselves develop into character, which is what we do by acting out the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated to us by our sinful flesh nature.

Re: Born sinning or born sinners? #14444
07/27/05 09:56 PM
07/27/05 09:56 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I mostly agree with MM. Just some subtle differences regarding how Jesus was able be sinless as a child. However, it's bordering on speculation to be too dogmatic on some of these things.

I agree with the statements MM made regarding heredity and not relying in His own divine power to overcome.

Re: Born sinning or born sinners? #14445
07/27/05 10:14 PM
07/27/05 10:14 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Tom and Mike,

"Each soul inherits certain un-Christlike traits of character. It is the grand and noble work of a lifetime to keep under control these tendencies to wrong." {HP 231.2}

Our inherited tendencies to wrong, or propensities to sin, are the un-Christlike traits of character our parents transmit to us.

1) From whom did Christ inherit His traits of character - from His mother or from His Father?

2) Ellen White calls un-Christlike the wrong traits of character we inherit. How could Christ possess un-Christlike traits of character?

Re: Born sinning or born sinners? #14446
07/27/05 10:27 PM
07/27/05 10:27 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
R: Tom and Mike,

"Each soul inherits certain un-Christlike traits of character. It is the grand and noble work of a lifetime to keep under control these tendencies to wrong." {HP 231.2}

Our inherited tendencies to wrong, or propensities to sin, are the un-Christlike traits of character our parents transmit to us.

1) From whom did Christ inherit His traits of character - from His mother or from His Father?

2) Ellen White calls un-Christlike the wrong traits of character we inherit. How could Christ possess un-Christlike traits of character?

Tom: Addressing the questions in reverse order, I think "traits of character" in this context would have to be understood as that which would be available through the genetic code. Christ accepted the law of heredity, and it results, as shown by His ancestors. So the "trait" was a potential trait, one which could have been developed into a full-fledged actual trait, if His mind had not always consented to the will of His Father. The potential was there in His flesh, just like for all of us, but it was never developed.

Christ's human heredity came from His mother, as Christ's Father was not human.

Re: Born sinning or born sinners? #14447
07/28/05 05:31 AM
07/28/05 05:31 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Rosangela, the quote you posted applies to born again believers. If we combine all the quotes that have been posted regarding being born again and being able to partake of the divine nature and being able to keep unchristlike tendencies and propensities under the control of a sanctified mind and will – we end up with a complete picture.

As I see it, the picture looks like this: Jesus was born, as it were, born again, which means He partook of the divine nature and kept His inherited human traits of character under the control of a sanctified mind and will, and He did it in exactly the same way born again believers must do it. We are no more guilty than was Jesus for inheriting unholy traits of character from our parents. We are not guilty of them until we turn them into character, which, of course, Jesus never did.

Again, traits or tendencies are not character, rather character is the result of choosing to sin over and over again. Traits are inherited, whereas, character is cultivated. Do you see a difference between an inherited trait of character and a cultivated character trait?

“The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts.” (SC 57)

“It is not through one act that the character is formed, but by a repetition of acts that habits are established and character confirmed.” (ST 4-30-1894)

Re: Born sinning or born sinners? #14448
07/28/05 02:01 PM
07/28/05 02:01 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
This is how we begin in life:

“Children inherit inclinations to wrong, but they also have many lovely traits of character. These should be strengthened and developed, while the tendencies to evil should be carefully guarded against and repressed.” {RH, January 24, 1907 par. 7}

This work begins with our parents, if they are Christians, and we proceed with it, after we are born again:

“We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good.” {Mar 225.7}

We must cut away all the evil traits (selfishness) from our character, whether inherited or cultivated, and reach a point where only the positive traits (love) remain to be developed. When this is accomplished, we reflect the image of God fully.

“Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully.” {Mar 254.1}

Now, if you think that Jesus had hereditary evil tendencies, this means that, until He cut away all of them from His character, He didn’t reflect the image of God fully - He didn’t reflect perfectly God’s character of love. But this is not what happened. He was the perfect image of His Father and reflected fully His character of love to the world, from the moment He was born to the moment He died.

“Christ came to the earth and stood before the children of men with the hoarded love of eternity, and this is the treasure that through our connection with Him we are to receive, to reveal, and to impart.” {SpTB04 9}

Re: Born sinning or born sinners? #14449
07/29/05 03:52 AM
07/29/05 03:52 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The Spirit of Prophesy is clear that Christ accepted the law of heredity:

quote:
Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. (DA 49)
The evil tendencies which existed in the genetic code never appeared in Christ's life because His mind never consented. The flesh of itself cannot sin; it must receive an "OK" from the mind. Christ never gave that OK.

He had the same potential for evil resident in His flesh which we have, but the potential was perfectly kept in check.

The difference was not in Christ's flesh, but in His mind.

Re: Born sinning or born sinners? #14450
07/28/05 05:25 PM
07/28/05 05:25 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Tom,

Inherited, as well as cultivated, tendencies to evil must be cut away from the character. I understand that if you have a tendency to murmuring, for instance, it won´t remain for ever with you, but it will be eliminated from your life; it will disappear. The evil must be separated from the character.

"Here Christ would teach us that the character-building needs close and careful attention. This is the work that Judas' keen perception might have discerned if he had received the lessons which Christ sought to teach him. His objectionable traits of character would then have disappeared, and he would have become meek and lowly of heart, like his Master. {ST, May 20, 1897 par. 9}

"And this work is something that we as well as Judas must do. Those who have hereditary tendencies to evil, those who are putting forth thorn branches to wound all with whom they come in contact, should see that the offending members are cut away. Painful as this work may be of separating the evil from our character, it must be done. Selfishness and covetousness, which is idolatry; the harsh and unkind spirit, that, manifested in word or deed, will wound and destroy souls, must be taken out of the life, or the entire man will become offensive to himself and to God. His hard-heartedness will cause him to neglect the very ones who need his help. {ST, May 20, 1897 par. 10} ...

"This is the bread which came down from heaven, even the Word of God. And this Word, received and appropriated by the living agents, will produce that faith which works by love, and purifies the soul. It will cut away the hereditary tendencies to evil, and the wrong traits of character that have been strengthened by cultivation. However dearly we may prize these, it is better to separate them from our life practise now than to have their predominating power defiling and corrupting the whole man. And not only this, they destroy our influence for good, and, instead of being a savor of life unto life, we become a savor of death unto death." {ST, May 20, 1897 par. 12}

Re: Born sinning or born sinners? #14451
07/28/05 05:28 PM
07/28/05 05:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
quote:
As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good.
Rosangela, this insight cannot be interpreted to mean we inherit our parents character. "... character is not inherited." Here's the context of this qoute:

PP 223
An upright character is of greater worth than the gold of Ophir. Without it none can rise to an honorable eminence. But character is not inherited. It cannot be bought. Moral excellence and fine mental qualities are not the result of accident. The most precious gifts are of no value unless they are improved. The formation of a noble character is the work of a lifetime and must be the result of diligent and persevering effort. God gives opportunities; success depends upon the use made of them. {PP 223.1}

Also, Jesus was not born with a fully developed character. He developed a well rounded character as He grew from childhood to manhood.

COL 331
But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected. {COL 331.1}

Jesus learned “obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” (Hebrews 5:8, 9) “For it became him . . . to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.” (Hebrews 2:10) Jesus had to develop a perfect character the same as born again believers.

DA 762
The law requires righteousness, a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God’s holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. (DA 762)

Re: Born sinning or born sinners? #14452
07/28/05 05:37 PM
07/28/05 05:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Rosangela, we need to balance your last list of quotes with this one:

AA 560, 561
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}

We will never be able to totally silence the voice of our sinful flesh nature. We can eliminate much of it, but not all of it. Not until Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh nature with a sinless one will we be free from its unholy clamorings. We are not, however, guilty of the stuff that survives until the day Jesus returns. We are only guilty if we act them out or turn them into character.

Page 22 of 30 1 2 20 21 22 23 24 29 30

Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
Third Quarter 2024 The Book of Mark
by dedication. 09/06/24 12:53 AM
Fireballs in the Sky
by kland. 09/05/24 09:41 PM
The Gospel According To John
by dedication. 09/03/24 05:48 PM
Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost?
by dedication. 09/01/24 04:02 PM
Profiles Of Jesus In Zecharia
by dedication. 09/01/24 03:48 PM
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 08/28/24 02:39 PM
Deep down, are humans basically good?
by kland. 08/28/24 12:10 PM
The fragility of our cultural lifestyle
by kland. 08/28/24 11:29 AM
O Canada for Freedom
by Rick H. 08/24/24 01:54 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
Dr Conrad Vine Banned
by Rick H. 09/07/24 09:49 AM
A campaign against the church
by kland. 09/05/24 09:39 PM
SDA Infiltration by Jesuits?
by kland. 09/05/24 09:37 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by dedication. 09/02/24 04:58 PM
Timeline of the Last Day Events
by Rick H. 08/31/24 04:28 PM
Is God letting loose the Four Winds of Strife?
by Rick H. 08/31/24 07:29 AM
Why Is Papacy Uniting COVID/Climate Change
by Rick H. 08/31/24 04:13 AM
Who is the AntiChrist? (Identifying Him)
by Rick H. 08/31/24 03:57 AM
What Does EGW Say About Ordination?
by Rick H. 08/30/24 08:22 PM
LLU Endorses Gay Pride Month!
by kland. 08/28/24 11:36 AM
Perfection, when will we gain it?
by Rick H. 08/24/24 02:18 PM
The Beginning and Ending of the Sabbath
by Rick H. 08/24/24 02:12 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1