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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14453
07/28/05 04:41 PM
07/28/05 04:41 PM
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SDA
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Also, what do you think about this insight? quote:
Again, traits or tendencies are not character, rather character is the result of choosing to sin over and over again. Traits are inherited, whereas, character is cultivated. Do you see a difference between an inherited trait of character and a cultivated character trait?
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14454
07/28/05 10:23 PM
07/28/05 10:23 PM
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R: Tom,
Inherited, as well as cultivated, tendencies to evil must be cut away from the character. I understand that if you have a tendency to murmuring, for instance, it won´t remain for ever with you, but it will be eliminated from your life; it will disappear. The evil must be separated from the character.
Tom: The tendencies only need to be cut away if they've been exercized. If they are a tendency only in potential, but not in actual practise, there is nothing to cut out.
For example, say may ancestry is such that I have a genetic tendency towards alcoholism, but I have never drank. I have an inherited tendency towards evil (alcholism), but I do not need to have it "cut away" because I have never exercized that evil which I had a tendency toward.
So Christ accepted the great law of heredity, just as we do, and the results of which are shown in his ancestry, which is every type of vice and sin. He inherited the same tendencies which we do, and for the very reason the Spirit of Prophesy points out; in order to share in our temptations and sorrows, and give us the example of a sinless life.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14455
07/29/05 01:45 AM
07/29/05 01:45 AM
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quote:
The tendencies only need to be cut away if they've been exercized. If they are a tendency only in potential, but not in actual practise, there is nothing to cut out.
Excellent point, Tom. I like to refer to them as dormant defects, which are harmless, that is, until or unless they are awakened. If they ever rear their ugly head we are not guilty unless we cherish the thought, or act it out in word or deed. It's not necessary to sin first in order to become aware of it, or in order to resist it the first time.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14456
07/29/05 04:16 AM
07/29/05 04:16 AM
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quote:
It's not necessary to sin first in order to become aware of it, or in order to resist it the first time.
This is true. It's also the case that one need not sin in order to repent of it.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14457
07/29/05 03:27 PM
07/29/05 03:27 PM
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Tom and Mike,
When Ellen White says character is not inherited, she is referring to a noble character, an upright character; this, in fact, cannot be inherited from sinful parents; it must be formed. But children do inherit a character; it’s just not fully developed.
"They [children] have inherited the defective characters of their parents, and the discipline of the home has been no help in the formation of right character.--CT 192 (1913)." {2MCP 550.1}
“Characters are not formed in one mold. There is every phase of character received by children as an inheritance. The defects and the virtues in traits of character are thus revealed. ... Hereditary and cultivated deformity of human character, as also beauty of character, will have to be met, and much grace cultivated in the instructor to know how to deal with the erring for their present and eternal good.” {FE 277.1}
“But many have inherited traits of character that in no way represent the divine Model. There are many who have some defect of character received as a birthright, which they have not overcome, but have cherished as though it were fine gold, and brought with them into their religious experience. In many cases these traits are retained through the entire life.” {5T 418.1}
Look at what Ellen white says: defective character inherited, hereditary deformity of human character, defects of character received as a birthright.
We are born with a defective, deformed character, and this character must be transformed:
“The human character is depraved, deformed by sin, and terribly unlike that of the first man as he came from the hands of the Creator.” {YRP 57.3}
“God made Adam after His own character, pure and upright. There were no corrupt principles in the first Adam, no corrupt propensities or tendencies to evil.” {AG 344.3}
Adam came from the hands of the Creator with a character, that is, he had a character before he did something and before he formed habits. We also are born with a character before we form habits; it’s just not fully developed. Adam’s character was perfect; ours is imperfect. The corrupt principles, corrupt propensities and tendencies to evil which we inherit makes the character we inherit deformed. Was Christ born with a deformed character?
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14458
07/29/05 04:13 PM
07/29/05 04:13 PM
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quote:
Was Christ born with a deformed character?
Of course not.
However, the quotes you posted must be understood in the broader context of Sister White's ideas and insights regarding the differences between inherited traits and cultivated traits. It is obvious, to me, that she didn't always insert the word "trait" when she wrote about inheriting character. It is implied, though, based on the larger context.
She makes it very clear that character is the result of repeatedly doing something. Character cannot be inherited. We inherit our parents traits and propensities, but we do not inherit the character they themselves hammered out over the years. Remember, character is what determines our eternal destiny during judgment, and nobody can do that for us. We are saved or lost based on the character we ourselves develop, not on what we inherit.
As humans, before we experience the miracle of rebirth, we naturally, insitinctively act out the unholy clamorings we inherited from our parents. As a result we begin developing sinful character the moment we are capable of consciousness. We develop sinful character by default.
Jesus, on the other hand, was born, as it were, born again. As such, He did not naturally act out the unholy clamorings He inherited from Mary. Instead, by the grace of God, and in ways that haven't been completely explained to us, Jesus partook of His Father's divine nature, like a born again believer, and was able to resist the temptations communicated to His mind via His sinful flesh nature.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14459
07/29/05 09:26 PM
07/29/05 09:26 PM
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Mike, You said, quote:
We are saved or lost based on the character we ourselves develop, not on what we inherit.
Mike, the moment we are born we start developing our character. Long before we reach the age of accountability, our character already determines our eternal destiny.
"Some parents allow Satan to control their children, and their children are not restrained, but are allowed to have wicked tempers, to be passionate, selfish, and disobedient. Should they die these children would not be taken to heaven. The parent's course of action is determining the future welfare of their children. If they allow them to be disobedient and passionate they are allowing Satan to take them in charge and work through them as shall please his satanic majesty, and these children, never educated to obedience and to lovely traits of character, will not be taken to heaven, for the same temper and disposition would be revealed in them." {3SM 314.4}
A trait of character is just an aspect, quality or characteristic of your character. A defective trait of character makes the character defective and will inevitably be manifested in the life, as you pointed out. This is what happens to all of us.
Your explanation doesn't work because a born-again believer must continually choose not to manifest wrong traits of character, but a little child can't do this. Even if Jesus had been born born again, if He had wrong traits of character He would have had to choose not to manifest them, which is something impossible for a little child to do. Thus, in some mysterious way He would have had an advantage over us.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14460
07/29/05 09:38 PM
07/29/05 09:38 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Rosangela: You're making quite a few assumptions here. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that how Christ remained sinless as a child is a mystery unexplained to mortals. So I don't think your inferences are valid. We simply don't know how Christ remained sinless as a small child. That's what inspiration tells us.
What we do know is that His heredity was like ours, warts and all. However, His character was sinless (but not His flesh).
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14461
07/29/05 11:44 PM
07/29/05 11:44 PM
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Brazil
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Tom,
What inspirations tells us is that Christ "was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called ´that holy thing.´ It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin."
This says nothing about Christ being tempted as a baby, but about the temptations of Christ during His whole life.
Who said Satan is able to tempt babies? They sure can manifest evil traits of character, and if these are not corrected by the parents, Satan controls the child in the sense that they are manifesting His attributes. But who said he can tempt them?
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14462
07/30/05 04:25 AM
07/30/05 04:25 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
His birth was a miracle of God; for, said the angel, "Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great and shall be called the son of the Highest; and the Lord shall give unto him the throne of his Father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing that I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall
-19-
be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." {13MR 18.2}
These words are not addressed to any human being, except to the Son of the Infinite God. Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called that holy thing. It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves: for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the rock, Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity. {13MR 19.1}
It's not clear that this is dealing with the earliest moments of Christ's life? How Christ was able to overcome sin after He reached the age of accountability is no mystery at all. We are given tons of insight regarding that. It's only His very early human life where this is a mystery.
That Christ was called that "holy thing" is no surprise, since Christ was God incarnate. God is holy, no doubt about it.
Regarding Satan tempting babies, I don't care. This is a non issue, totally irrelevant to the main point, which is a simple one.
quote:
Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}
Christ accepted the results of the law of heredity, like we all do, the results of which, for Christ, are shown in the history of His ancestor's lives, which include every sort of vice and sin.
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