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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14483
08/06/05 10:44 PM
08/06/05 10:44 PM
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Hre's another helpful insight: quote:
1MCP 218, 219
TERMS SUCH AS "PASSION" AND "PROPENSITIES" ARE AT TIMES USED. THESE ARE OFTEN QUALIFIED BY SUCH WORDS AS BASER, ANIMAL, LUSTFUL, DEPRAVED, CORRUPT. THIS STRONG LANGUAGE COULD LEAD SOME READERS TO ASSUME THAT ALL PASSION IS CONDEMNED AND ALL SEXUAL ACTIVITY IS EVIL. THE FOLLOWING QUOTATIONS WOULD HARDLY SUSTAIN THIS: {1MCP 218.5}
Not only does God require you to control your thoughts, but also your passions and affections. . . . Passion and affection are powerful agents....Positively guard your thoughts, your passions, and your affections. Do not degrade these to minister to lust. Elevate them [passions and affections] to purity, devote them to God.--2T 561, 564 (1870). {1MCP 218.6}
All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul.--Ms 1, 1888. (AH 128.) {1MCP 219.1}
IN THE SAME CONTEXT IN WHICH SOME OF THE STRONG TERMS REFERRED TO ABOVE ARE USED, SHE URGES THAT THE PASSIONS ARE TO BE CONTROLLED BY WHAT SHE CALLED "HIGHER, NOBLER POWERS," "REASON," "MORAL RESTRAINT," AND "MORAL FACULTIES." SHE WRITES OF TEMPERANCE AND MODERATION AND AVOIDING EXCESS. IN MARRIAGE THOSE PASSIONS COMMON TO ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE TO BE SUBJECT TO CONTROL, THEY ARE TO BE GOVERNED. NOTE AGAIN: {1MCP 219.2}
Those who regard the marriage relation as one of God's sacred ordinances, guarded by His holy precept, will be controlled by the dictates of reason.--HL, No. 2, p. 48. {1MCP 219.3}
Very few feel it to be a religious duty to govern their passions. . . . The marriage covenant covers sin of the darkest hue. . . . Health and life are sacrificed upon the altar of base passion. The higher, nobler powers are brought into subjection to the animal propensities. . . . Love is a pure and holy principle; but lustful passion will not admit of restraint and will not be dictated to or controlled by reason.--2T 472, 473 (1870). {1MCP 219.4}
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14484
08/06/05 11:43 PM
08/06/05 11:43 PM
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Here is another very convincing testimony. Once again she compares believers and Christ.
MR No. 1211 - Christ's Humiliation
Christ's perfect humanity is the same that man may have through connection with Christ. As God, Christ could not be tempted any more than He was not tempted from His allegiance in heaven. But as Christ humbled Himself to the nature of man, He could be tempted. He had not taken on Him even the nature of the angels, but humanity, perfectly identical with our own nature, except without the taint of sin. A human body, a human mind, with all the peculiar properties, He was bone, brain, and muscle. A man of our flesh, He was compassed with the weakness of humanity. The circumstances of His life were of that character that He was exposed to all the inconveniences that belong to men, not in wealth, not in ease, but in poverty and want and humiliation. He breathed the very air man must breathe. He trod our earth as man. He had reason, conscience, memory, will, and affections of the human soul which was united with His divine nature. {16MR 181.4}
Our Lord was tempted as man is tempted. He was capable of yielding to temptations, as are human beings. His finite nature was pure and spotless, but the divine nature that led Him to say to Philip, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father" also, was not humanized; neither was humanity deified by the blending or union of the two natures; each retained its essential character and properties. {16MR 182.1}
But here we must not become in our ideas common and earthly, and in our perverted ideas we must not think that the liability of Christ to yield to Satan's temptations degraded His humanity and He possessed the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man. {16MR 182.2}
The divine nature, combined with the human, made Him capable of yielding to Satan's temptations. Here the test to Christ was far greater than that of Adam and Eve, for Christ took our nature, fallen but not corrupted, and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God. To suppose He was not capable of yielding to temptation places Him where He cannot be a perfect example for man, and the force and the power of this part of Christ's humiliation, which is the most eventful, is no instruction or help to human beings. {16MR 182.3}
But the facts of this history are not fable, but a living, acting, experience. [To deny this] would rob Jesus of His greatest glory--allegiance to God--which enshrouded Him as a garment in this world on the field of battle with the relentless foe, and He is not reckoned with the transgressor. He descended in His humiliation to be tempted as man would be tempted, and His nature was that of man, capable of yielding to temptation. His very purity and holiness were assailed by a fallen foe, the very one that became corrupted and then was ejected from heaven. How deeply and keenly must Christ have felt this humiliation. {16MR 183.1}
How do fallen angels look upon this pure and uncontaminated One, the Prince of Life, through the different stages of His humiliation? They look upon the scene, the Son of the living God humiliated to take upon Himself the nature of man and meet the strong man armed with all his weapons of deception and falsehood to overcome Jesus Christ. And every victory gained, how precious it is in behalf of the human family, exalting, elevating, ennobling the workmanship of God; and Satan has been at work for centuries, degrading, debasing, and prostituting all his powers to do his hellish work. {16MR 183.2}
The humanity of Christ received the fallen foe and engaged in battle with him. He was sustained in the conflict by divine power just as man will be sustained by his being a partaker of the divine nature. He gained victory after victory as our Champion, the Captain of our salvation, and the divine approval of God and all the universe of heaven flowed into His soul. His nature was shocked almost unto death, but the heavenly angels ministered unto the suffering One. {16MR 183.3}
All heaven rejoiced because humanity, the workmanship of God, was placed in an elevated scale with God by the signal victory gained. Christ was more than conqueror, leaving the way open that man may be more than conqueror through Christ's merits, because He loved him. The Son of the infinite God is brought into the tenderest sympathies with the tempted church. He knows how to succor those who shall be tempted, because He was Himself tempted.--Ms 57, 1890. (Transcribed from Diary Book No. 14, pp. 272-283; 293-295.)
EDITED: I deleted the first half of this quote in order to focus on the humanity of Christ as it relates to born again believers.
[ August 07, 2005, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Mountain Man ]
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14485
08/07/05 11:11 AM
08/07/05 11:11 AM
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FOOD FOR THOUGHT: AFTER THEIR FALL, WAS ADAM AND EVE'S EXPERIENCE IN RELATION TO SIN AND TEMPTATION EQUAL TO THAT OF THE REST OF HUMANITY OR DIFFERENT FROM IT?
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14486
08/08/05 03:05 AM
08/08/05 03:05 AM
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I realize I have posted tons of quotes and questions, and hopefully it doesn't derail the topic, but they are definitely pertinent and powerful. Here is another quote where Sister White again compares Jesus and born again believers. By comparing the two it is obvious to me that she believed they are identical in every way, that is, in their humanity. Which is amazing. quote:
“We are ever to be thankful that Jesus has proved to us by actual facts that man can keep the commandments of God, giving contradiction to Satan’s falsehood that man cannot keep them. The Great Teacher came to our world to stand at the head of humanity, to thus elevate and sanctify humanity by His holy obedience to all of God’s requirements showing it is possible to obey all the commandments of God. He has demonstrated that a lifelong obedience is possible. Thus He gives chosen, representative men to the world, as the Father gave the Son, to exemplify in their life the life of Jesus Christ.
“We need not place the obedience of Christ by itself as something for which He was particularly adapted, by His particular divine nature, for He stood before God as man’s representative and tempted as man’s substitute and surety. If Christ had a special power which it is not the privilege of man to have, Satan would have made capital of this matter. The work of Christ was to take from the claims of Satan his control of man, and He could do this only in the way that He came–a man, tempted as a man, rendering the obedience of a man. . . .
“Bear in mind that Christ’s overcoming and obedience is that of a true human be-ing. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the complete-ness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man.” (3SM 139, 140)
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14487
08/08/05 03:36 AM
08/08/05 03:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: AFTER THEIR FALL, WAS ADAM AND EVE'S EXPERIENCE IN RELATION TO SIN AND TEMPTATION EQUAL TO THAT OF THE REST OF HUMANITY OR DIFFERENT FROM IT?
Different. Sinful nature, as it is passed on from generation to generation, accumulates power, like a snow ball rolling downhill, which makes it more and more difficult to recognize and resist unto the honor and glory of God - but not impossible. The power of God is proportionate to the problem. We are, in Christ, more than conquerors.
DA 117
For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation. {DA 117.1}
...
From the time of Adam to that of Christ, self-indulgence had increased the power of the appetites and passions, until they had almost unlimited control. Thus men had become debased and diseased, and of themselves it was impossible for them to overcome. {DA 117.4}
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14488
08/07/05 09:18 PM
08/07/05 09:18 PM
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RR: Tom, 1) In his article Paulson does not distinguish between natural passions and sinful passions, which is fundamental to a correct understanding of the subject. Natural passions will remain with us our whole life and must be controlled by reason, while sinful passions must definitely be cut away from the character. Tom: He addressed these concepts using different terms. 2) Old Tom: You are making the assumption that EGW uses these terms completely synonomously, but you have not established this point. RR: “There [at the wide gate] depraved appetite and natural inclinations find abundant room. There may be seen self-indulgence, pride, envy, evil surmisings, love of money, self-exaltation.” {TMK 304.2} “Self-indulgence, self-pleasing, pride, and extravagance must be renounced. We cannot be Christians and gratify these propensities.” {RH, May 16, 1893 par. 3} “The ill-balanced mind, the hasty temper, the fretfulness, envy, or jealousy, bear witness to parental neglect. These evil traits of character bring great unhappiness to their possessors.” {CG 207.1} “They cherish pride, envy, and hatred, and contention springs from these evil passions.” {BEcho, March 19, 1894 par. 2} Old Tom:In fact, it is clear that she does not use these terms synonomously because some of these terms she applies to Christ, and some she doesn't. RR: The terms are synonyms, as shown above, however passions/propensities/inclinations/traits of character may be good or bad, so any of these terms could be applied to Christ; this doesn’t mean she must have applied all of them. I’ve not made a careful analysis, but it seems that passions/inclinations are applied to both physical and moral aspects of man, while propensities/traits are applied just to the moral aspects. Tom: We're getting a bit removed from the original point. It seemed to me that you lumped a bunch of quote and statements together which were using different words and phrases in different ways. As you allude to yourself, there are subtle distinctions in the way EGW uses these words and phrases. RR: 3- Christ was made to be sin for us in terms of imputation. Tom: You pointed out to say that Christ had something unChristlike was an oxy-moron. I cited 2 Cor. 5:21 to show that such "oxymorons" can nevertheless be the case. God in becoming flesh at all was doing an "oxymoron" thing. Although Christ was perfectly holy, the flesh He partook of was not. His mind was the mind of Christ, but His flesh was the flesh of sinful man. RR: There was no intrinsic sin in Christ. Tom: Intrisic means "belonging to a thing by its very nature;" Since Christ was by His very nature God, who is sinless, your statement is of course true. RR: Now, it’s difficult to prove that Satan’s passions/propensities/inclinations/traits of character are not sin. “Envy is one of the most despicable traits of Satanic character.” {ST, August 17, 1888 par. 6} “Many who claim to be children of God are children of the wicked one, and have all his passions, ... his unlovely traits of character." {SW 13.2} "Liquor-drinking encourages the vilest debauchery and strengthens the most satanic propensities. {BTS, July 1, 1902 par. 4} Tom: I don't know what point your trying to make here. Old Tom:The relevant point is that Christ was in all points tempted as we are, not tempted beyond or in some other way. An earlier quote I provided stated that the difficulties of the Christian are temptations from within, and that Christ understood these difficulties. RR: I’m not sure if by temptations from within you mean something which is intrinsic to us (in this case temptations which involve the body are temptations from within). If, however, by temptations from within you mean what Ellen White says here, then Christ was not tempted from within: Tom: I meant what she said in the quote I cited. She said the most difficult temptations Christians have to face are the temtations which are from within. These are the temptations which Christ's understands from His own experience. This is how He is able to comfort us and how He was able to given an example to us. The following statement from DA is very easy to follow: quote:
It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49)
Christ accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity, which results were shown in the histroy of Christ's ancestors, which includes every kind of sin and vice.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14489
08/07/05 09:22 PM
08/07/05 09:22 PM
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quote:
“We need not place the obedience of Christ by itself as something for which He was particularly adapted, by His particular divine nature, for He stood before God as man’s representative and tempted as man’s substitute and surety. If Christ had a special power which it is not the privilege of man to have, Satan would have made capital of this matter.
This is a good one. It should be clear that if Christ took the nature of unfallen Adam, this would be a "special power" which it is not our privilege to have.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14490
08/07/05 10:53 PM
08/07/05 10:53 PM
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Tom,
What is exactly the distinction people want to make by referring to Christ´s pre-fall and post-fall nature? Adam didn´t have any inherited tendencies to evil, either before or after his fall. The difference between Adam´s pre-fall and post-fall nature is just in terms of acquired tendencies to evil.
Mike,
I still have to read the references you gave. I will reply to you tomorrow morning.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14491
08/08/05 12:10 AM
08/08/05 12:10 AM
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The distinction is that after Adam sinned the nature of man changed, which changed was passed genetically to Adam's ancestors. This was discussed in the earlier SOP quote. Apart from the grace of God, it is impossible for man to overcome sin. This was not the state of Adam before the fall, but it was the state of Adam after the fall, and it is our state as well. It was also the state of Christ, as far as His humanity is concerned.
Christ could have overcome using His own divine power, but He chose not to do that. As a human being, He could only overcome in the same way we can, which is by faith.
Christ was tempted in all points as we are tempted, which includes doing things which are against the inclinations of our flesh.
The distinctions made between the two natures have to do with how we are tempted, as well as the question as to whether it is possible to overcome sin. If simply having sinful flesh causes one to be a sinner, as many believe, then obviously Christ could not have partaken of our flesh because that would have made Him a sinner. Also we would not be able to overcome sin, as simply be existing we would be in a continual state of sin.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14492
08/08/05 04:55 PM
08/08/05 04:55 PM
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The question came up on another forum as to whether we're born with a carnal mind or not, and here's what I found when researching that: SOP word searches on the phrases "carnal mind" and "carnally minded" failed to turn up a single instance where EGW wrote that we're born that way. Indeed, we can see definitely that we're not born with a carnal mind, both from the Bible and the SOP: "...the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7 According to this verse, if a baby is born with a carnal mind, then that baby is at "enmity against God." Hatred against God, in other words. But babies aren't at enmity against God, as we've already seen in previous discussions. Many babies will be taken to heaven at the first resurrection, as EGW saw in vision {2SM 260}. God isn't taking beings to heaven who hate Him, obviously. So it's just not possible that babies would have carnal minds, automatically at birth. Romans 8:7 also explains why a carnal mind is enmity against God: "for it is not subject to the law of God." But a baby's mind is neither "subject" nor "not subject" to the law of God -- a baby doesn't know the difference either way! More statements regarding the carnal mind, from the SOP: "The carnal mind rejects the truth; but the soul that is converted undergoes a marvelous change."
{Youth's Instructor 10-09-02 para. 11} Babies don't "reject the truth," so they can't be said to have carnal minds. They can't reject something when they have no idea it even exists. "Those who hate the law of Jehovah reveal that they have carnal minds, which are not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. This is not for want of proof, but because of the stubborn resistance of their unbelieving hearts, -- not because of ignorance, but because they have set their feet in the path of transgression."
{RH 01-26-97 para. 7} Here we see some of the characteristics of those who have carnal minds: - They "hate the law of Jehovah." Babies don't even realize that the law of Jehovah exists, so they can't hate it. - "They have set their feet in the path of transgression." That's a conscious choice they've made. Babies can't do that. - The carnal mind arises "not because of ignorance." Babies *are* ignorant. So they can't have carnal minds. Another evidence: "Heaven would not be desirable to the carnal-minded; their natural, unsanctified hearts would feel no attraction toward that pure and holy place, and if it were possible for them to enter, they would find there nothing congenial."
{AA 273.2} Since many babies will be taken to heaven, it's impossible that they would have carnal minds, since "heaven would not be desirable to the carnal-minded," and "they would find there nothing congenial." Yet another way to look at it: Paul wrote that "...to be carnally minded is death." Romans 8:6 Yet EGW saw babies being taken to heaven at the 2nd Coming. If babies have carnal minds, which Paul said is a condition that engenders *death*, how can babies possibly be taken to heaven at Jesus' coming, in the resurrection of *life*? The carnal mind is something that is developed, due to choices made. It's not something with which we're born. "No man can be forced to transgress. His own consent must be first gained; the soul must purpose the sinful act before passion can dominate over reason or iniquity triumph over conscience. Temptation, however strong, is never an excuse for sin."
{5T 177.2} So yes, we're born with disinclinations to obey; but we're not actually "not subject" until we *choose* to be. "The soul must purpose the sinful act." This is something babies can't yet do.
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