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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14493
08/08/05 05:30 PM
08/08/05 05:30 PM
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John, everything you said about the quotes you posted is true if we understand them in the context of known and wilfull sins. But it is not true if we are talking about sins of ignorance. God will take lots of people to heaven who are guilty of sins of ignorance. But He will not take anyone there if they are guilty of wilfull sin and refuse to repent.
You're right, of course, infants cannot make an intelligent decision to sin wilfully, but they can and do sin unknowingly, and they do it all the time. But, of course, God does not count them, or anyone, guilty of the sins they commit unknowingly. However, Jesus died for the sins we commit unknowingly.
Jesus paid the price for all sins of ignorance, which is how and why God can justify taking people to heaven who are only guilty of committing unknown sins. Sins of ignorance are sins that do not lead unto death.
Romans
4:8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
1 John
5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14494
08/08/05 07:05 PM
08/08/05 07:05 PM
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Tom, 1- Speaking of faith, Christ’s relationship with God was indeed based on faith, but shouldn’t Adam, before his fall, also overcome by faith in God’s goodness and love? 2- As to grace, Christ’s relationship with God was not based on grace, was it? How could He offer grace to us if He Himself had been in need of grace? 3- quote:
Christ was tempted in all points as we are tempted, which includes doing things which are against the inclinations of our flesh.
It depends on what you mean by flesh. If by flesh you mean the natural inclinations pertaining to human beings, I agree. If by flesh you mean the carnal nature (carnal mind), then I don’t agree.
Mike,
1- Yes, “natural and acquired” are evidently synonymous with “inherited and cultivated”.
“But the light that was shed upon him from the character of Christ, brought with it the responsibility of yielding up every natural or acquired trait that was not in harmony with the character of Christ. In this Judas did not stand the test.” --ST Dec. 18, 1893.
“Ask him to give you the gentleness of Christ; then you will be true to your duty, true to your position of trust, and true to God, a faithful steward, overcoming natural and acquired tendencies to evil.” {SpTA05 20.1}
2- As to the difference between natural and unnatural propensities, perhaps natural propensities are those propensities pertaining to humanity but not evil in themselves; unnatural propensities would be those same propensities, but perverted. See what EGW says about natural and unnatural appetite:
“In order for us to enjoy the natural appetite, which will preserve health and prolong life, God restricts the appetite. He says, Beware; restrain, deny unnatural appetite.”--T., V. III, p. 63. {HL 75.4}
3- The passage which intrigues me most and which seems to most favor your position is that which says that Christ’s enmity against Satan was in one sense supernatural.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14495
08/08/05 08:01 PM
08/08/05 08:01 PM
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RR: Tom,
1- Speaking of faith, Christ’s relationship with God was indeed based on faith, but shouldn’t Adam, before his fall, also overcome by faith in God’s goodness and love?
Tom: No, Adam did not need to overcome by faith, just and angels and unfallen angels do not need faith to overcome. I'm not aware of any statements from inspiration, at any rate, which speak of unfallen beings exercizing faith. Are you?
RR: 2- As to grace, Christ’s relationship with God was not based on grace, was it? How could He offer grace to us if He Himself had been in need of grace?
Tom: As a human being, Christ was in need of grace. As God, He was full of grace and truth. As a man, He overcame as we must overcome, not by relying on His own divine power.
RR: 3-
Old Tom:Christ was tempted in all points as we are tempted, which includes doing things which are against the inclinations of our flesh.
RR: It depends on what you mean by flesh. If by flesh you mean the natural inclinations pertaining to human beings, I agree. If by flesh you mean the carnal nature (carnal mind), then I don’t agree.
Tom: The flesh refers to that which is inherited. Christ accepted the results of the great law of heredity, which results are seen in His ancestors, which includes every sort of sin and vice (see DA 49).
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14496
08/08/05 09:47 PM
08/08/05 09:47 PM
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quote:
Tom: No, Adam did not need to overcome by faith, just and angels and unfallen angels do not need faith to overcome. I'm not aware of any statements from inspiration, at any rate, which speak of unfallen beings exercizing faith. Are you?
Tom,
I'd like to point out something here that I don't think you've thought out, at least it appears that way from your response to Roseangela that I quoted above.
What is faith?
When is faith needed?
Adam, and the rest of the universe, before the cross had to accept on faith that God was truly who He said He was, and that the devil was lying. We are told in the SOP that even those angels who remained loyal, and the inhabitants of other worlds, didn't really understand the principles involved and depth of the Lucifer's deceptions. He was just too good of a liar. Thus they were left in some state of doubt as to who was telling the truth. However, they remained loyal to God. What is it that causes us to remain faithful to God when we can't really understand what's happening? Isn't it faith in God?
Isn't clinging to his promises and taking Him at His word faith? That's what the entire universe had to do until the cross. Then they saw the truth. Then they knew exactly what was going on. It's at that point that they didn't need faith. Not before.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14497
08/08/05 10:54 PM
08/08/05 10:54 PM
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"Faith" can be defined in different ways. It can be conceived of as having to do with grace and mercy, in which case it wasn't necessary until after sin.
Also faith is contrasted in inspiration to "sight", because God cannot reveal Himself to us in a way that we could see Him in His glory, because it would kill us. However, unfallen beings can see Him, so do not need faith in the same sense we do.
From the standpoint of believing in God in the sense of character, certainly there would be similarities involved. I'm not aware of inspiration speaking of unfallen beings having faith in God, but I'm open to hearing about it. I'm not studied this out; I just don't recall having heard or read this.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14498
08/09/05 12:03 AM
08/09/05 12:03 AM
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quote:
3- The passage which intrigues me most and which seems to most favor your position is that which says that Christ’s enmity against Satan was in one sense supernatural.
Rosangela, she also uses the word “supernatural” in the context born again believers fighting the good fight of faith. In His humanity Jesus relied on the same supernatural help all of us depend on. “And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God.” (DA 24)
“Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was.” (DA 664) This begs the question - If Jesus' humanity was like a born again believers', what, then, was His humanity like? In what way, if any, was it unlike a born again believer?
quote:
Our condition through sin is unnatural, and the power that restores us must be supernatural, else it has no value. There is but one power that can break the hold of evil from the hearts of men, and that is the power of God on Jesus Christ. Only through the blood of the Crucified One is there cleansing from sin. His grace alone can enable us to resist and subdue the tendencies of our fallen nature. {AG 104.5}
When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. {AG 215.5}
Tom, what is the difference between fallen beings exercising saving faith and unfallen beings exercising non-saving faith? For example, when unfallen beings encounter things they don’t understand they have to trust and believe God until they understand it.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14499
08/09/05 12:49 AM
08/09/05 12:49 AM
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quote:
Also faith is contrasted in inspiration to "sight", because God cannot reveal Himself to us in a way that we could see Him in His glory, because it would kill us. However, unfallen beings can see Him, so do not need faith in the same sense we do.
That's a very narrow interpretaton of "sight" and faith. It also has nothing to do with my illustration.
I can physically see many people I do not trust, that I have no faith in whatsoever. Faith has everything to do with trust. It basically has nothing to do with the ability to physically see someone or something.
Doubting Thomas is an excellent example of this. Jesus stood right in front of Thomas and he still doubted. He didn't believe his eyes. Thomas didn't believe the words of Christ without physically touching Him.
Read the following quotes and see if faith was not required by all who stood loyal to God despite the temptations of the devil.
quote:
When Christ came to the earth in person, Satan's fiercest warfare was directed against Him. But by causing the Son of God to be crucified. Satan struck a blow at himself. When Christ died on the cross, Satan's death-knell was sounded. His deceptions were narrowly watched by the inhabitants of the unfallen worlds, as he, in disguise, worked in such a way that he thought he could not possibly be detected. But he was left to follow his own course, to condemn himself by his own deeds. And before the cross of Calvary he stood revealed in his true character. When Christ cried out, "It is finished," the unfallen worlds were made secure. For them the battle was fought and the victory won. Henceforth Satan had no place in the affections of the universe. The argument he had brought forward, that self-denial was impossible with God, and therefore unjustly required from His created intelligences, was forever answered. Satan's claims were forever set aside. The heavenly universe was secured in eternal allegiance. {RH, March 12, 1901 par. 8}
It was because of the issues at stake that the inhabitants of the unfallen worlds watched with such intense interest the struggle between the Prince of life and the prince of darkness. Those who had not sinned needed not the application of Christ's blood, but they did need to be made secure from Satan's power. The result of the conflict had a bearing on the future of all the worlds, and every step that Christ took in the path of humiliation was watched by them with the deepest interest. {RH, March 12, 1901 par. 9}
quote:
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory. {DA 758.2}
Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. {DA 758.3}
If you cannot clearly see the nature of the accusations, or understand the principles at stake, the only way you can continue to be loyal and believe in someone involved in a situation in which a third party is trying to make them look bad is through faith. There is no other way.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14500
08/09/05 02:19 AM
08/09/05 02:19 AM
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Gary, I'm not aware of anywhere in inspiration which speaks of unfallen beings exercising faith. However, I'm open to be corrected if you can produce such a statement.
This seems a bit removed from this thread. Perhaps you would like to start a thread on what faith is. That would certainly be a worwhile subject.
Faith as it is generally used in theological terms has to do with conversion. Used in a broader sense, it certainly seems to me that "faith" could be used in the sense you are suggeting.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14501
08/09/05 12:34 PM
08/09/05 12:34 PM
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quote:
Faith as it is generally used in theological terms has to do with conversion.
Once again this is an answer that leaves much to be desired in terms of honesty of answer. Faith, as biblically defined, has everything to do with living life, and that means trust in God for a Christian. The just shall live by faith. Hebrews 11 also has everything to do with how people lived their lives. Faith having to do only with conversion. Pshaw.... That's your second slippery answer after chastising someone else for slippery answers on the other thread we were participating in.
Anyway, I'm dropping the subject. I just came here for one last try at having honest discussions on an SDA theology forum, and from the two threads I joined it has become clear that honesty and truth are still being sacrificed on the altar of personal theology.
It's funny how people on forums dedicated to other subjects can be/are honest about things. They actually want to learn. It's actually easy to come to a consensus because everyone has the same goal--what is true about the subject. I can't tell you what a breath of fresh air that is after spending years on theology forums.
On theology forums everyone wants to make sure their opinion is the dominant one, whether it's correct or not, and any and all forums of dishonesty are the tools used to accomplish that goal. I can't deal with that in a polite way so I'm gone forever from theology forums in general, and SDA theology forums in particular.
I don't know why I figured things might be different this time around, but I did for some unknown reason. I guess I'm just an incurable idealist, always hoping for the best. I guess I just figured if there is ever going to be a place where the vast majority of its population would be honest people looking for truth it would be an SDA forum. I can't tell you how disillusioning the reality is. Very, very, very few people actually want to consider all the evidence. They just make up their minds what they want to believe and the rest of the evidence be hanged. It doesn't count.
Good luck, Roseangela. You're one of only a handful of people I've met in my life who actually takes all the evidence you can find on the nature of Christ and blends it together as a coherent whole.
The last time I read one of your posts it was on the nature of Christ. You've been "discussing" truth with people for several years now, and the "discussion" is at the exact same place, with the exact same objections, as it was a year or so ago. I really do hope you find someone interested in learning to discuss the subject with, but I've lost all hope of finding many such people on internet theology forums.
You're a total abberration from the norm, Roseangela, a real breath of fresh air. You have my respect and admiration, as much for your ability to still be polite in the face of what you have to deal with, as for your honesty.
Goodbye to you all. I very much hope that truth becomes the goal for all of you. I'm going back to technical forums where learning is the goal, not personal ego. I have nothing to offer on forums where I must learn as much about dishonesty as I learn about the subject under consideration, and nothing could make me sadder. This just shouldn't be on an SDA dominated forum. If we really believed our own SDA theology it would be impossible.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14502
08/09/05 05:58 PM
08/09/05 05:58 PM
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Tom: Faith as it is generally used in theological terms has to do with conversion.
Gary: Once again this is an answer that leaves much to be desired in terms of honesty of answer.
Tom: I stated several times that I wasn't aware of any statement in inspiration which speaks of faith in terms of unfallen beings. If you could provide such a statement, I would be happy to consider it. I don't see anything "dishonest" about my response. I was just presenting a point of view. "Dishonest" would be my presenting a view I didn't have, or twisting your words, or something like that.
I was happy to read your comments on the subject as it got me to think about the subject.
I sent you a personal message stating I apprecited your comments, and I do. I would be pleased if you would like to stay.
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